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  #91 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by beachbum View Post
show me 3 animals; one before evolution, one first generation mutation, and one 2nd generation mutation. good luck.. theres no proof..
My mom and dad, me, and my kids. Everyone on earth has very very slight mutations
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  #92 (permalink)  
Old 04-26-2008, 10:51 PM
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I've always been slightly confused by Intelligent Design. I know exactly what evolution is. Microevolution over brief periods of time add up to macroevolution over long periods, and that over a couple billion years that leads to all the different species around us. As far as I've been able to figure out, Intelligent Design says that all that happened, exactly like evolutionary laws would predict, only God was watching it happen, and that somehow makes it significantly different. Can someone fill me in?
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Old 04-27-2008, 08:00 PM
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I've always been slightly confused by Intelligent Design. I know exactly what evolution is. Microevolution over brief periods of time add up to macroevolution over long periods, and that over a couple billion years that leads to all the different species around us.
yes, and its all circumstantial. also, there are many missing links that we cant explain and we dont know why theyre missing..

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As far as I've been able to figure out, Intelligent Design says that all that happened, exactly like evolutionary laws would predict, only God was watching it happen, and that somehow makes it significantly different. Can someone fill me in?
if thats what you think ID is, then you have A LOT to learn...

here are some facts about intelligent design..

1. its not the same as creationism. creationism is a religious belief. ID is not.
2. it doesnt rule out evolution. evolution is a form of intelligent pattern. its not random..
3. it doesnt prove a god. god and intelligence are completely different.
4. ID is an idea that can exist without the idea of a god.
5. there are more than one idea of ID just like there are more then one idea of evolution.
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Old 04-27-2008, 08:43 PM
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can you name a specific mutation in an animal that we know of that exists which helped that animal survive better then its predecessor?

Antibiotic-resistant bacteria. Endlessly documented.
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Old 04-27-2008, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by beachbum View Post
1. its not the same as creationism. creationism is a religious belief. ID is not.
Belief in a "designer" is the basis of the majority of religions. I really can't see how you could discuss ID without bringing religion into that discussion.
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Old 04-28-2008, 04:43 PM
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Belief in a "designer" is the basis of the majority of religions. I really can't see how you could discuss ID without bringing religion into that discussion.
im agnostic yet i believe in ID.. and what youre discussing is an intelligent designer, not intelligent design. and its pretty simple to not discuss religion. religion is about faith and belief. science is about finding truth.

i have a couple of questions for you..

1. do you believe everything religion teaches has no truth to it?
2. do you believe that just because some views are seen as religious, they shouldnt be questioned in a scientific content?
3. do you think that science should be open to all beliefs and should study all fields, whether or not they are religious?
4. if ID is teaching religion, what religion are you teaching? specific religions please. and could you back up your claims with proof that ID is exactly what those religions teach?

i hope you answer all questions..
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Old 04-28-2008, 04:44 PM
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Antibiotic-resistant bacteria. Endlessly documented.
yes, and they are still the same bacteria. they havent mutated to a different form. its like a white person and a black person. they are different but the same species..
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  #98 (permalink)  
Old 04-28-2008, 04:51 PM
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yes, and they are still the same bacteria. they havent mutated to a different form. its like a white person and a black person. they are different but the same species..
Don't move the goalposts. Here is your question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beachbum
can you name a specific mutation in an animal that we know of that exists which helped that animal survive better then its predecessor?
Antibiotic-resistant bacteria. Bacterial mutation has helped the animal survive better than its predecessor.
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Old 04-28-2008, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Metrophobe View Post
Don't move the goalposts. Here is your question:



Antibiotic-resistant bacteria. Bacterial mutation has helped the animal survive better than its predecessor.
bacteria is not an animal...

animal:
an·i·mal Audio Help /ˈænəməl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[an-uh-muhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. any member of the kingdom Animalia, comprising multicellular organisms that have a well-defined shape and usually limited growth, can move voluntarily, actively acquire food and digest it internally, and have sensory and nervous systems that allow them to respond rapidly to stimuli: some classification schemes also include protozoa and certain other single-celled eukaryotes that have motility and animallike nutritional modes.



bacteria:
bac·te·ri·a Audio Help /bækˈtɪəriə/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bak-teer-ee-uh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–plural noun, singular -te·ri·um Audio Help /-ˈtɪəriəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[-teer-ee-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation.
ubiquitous one-celled organisms, spherical, spiral, or rod-shaped and appearing singly or in chains, comprising the Schizomycota, a phylum of the kingdom Monera (in some classification systems the plant class Schizomycetes), various species of which are involved in fermentation, putrefaction, infectious diseases, or nitrogen fixation.



now name an animal...
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Old 04-28-2008, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by beachbum View Post
bacteria is not an animal...

animal:
an·i·mal Audio Help /ˈænəməl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[an-uh-muhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. any member of the kingdom Animalia, comprising multicellular organisms that have a well-defined shape and usually limited growth, can move voluntarily, actively acquire food and digest it internally, and have sensory and nervous systems that allow them to respond rapidly to stimuli: some classification schemes also include protozoa and certain other single-celled eukaryotes that have motility and animallike nutritional modes.



bacteria:
bac·te·ri·a Audio Help /bækˈtɪəriə/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bak-teer-ee-uh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–plural noun, singular -te·ri·um Audio Help /-ˈtɪəriəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[-teer-ee-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation.
ubiquitous one-celled organisms, spherical, spiral, or rod-shaped and appearing singly or in chains, comprising the Schizomycota, a phylum of the kingdom Monera (in some classification systems the plant class Schizomycetes), various species of which are involved in fermentation, putrefaction, infectious diseases, or nitrogen fixation.



now name an animal...
First of all, that is the lamest deflection I've ever read on this forum. At least it also serves as a concession. Congratulations.

Here's a broad stroke for you: every animal you see is the beneficiary of mutation, adaptation, and success.

There are a few terms you should be familiar with before we go down this road.

1. Natural Selection. Essentially what natural selection describes is preferential breeding dictated by environment. An example: Moths. Pre-industrial revolution, a species of moth adapted its markings and colorings to mimic the bark of a birch tree in England. One direct result of the industrial revolution in this specific area was heavy soot. This soot tended to collect on everything, but specifically it collected on the birch trees. This caused an immediate problem for the moths as their ability to blend into the bark and avoid predators was compromised. Moths that were darker, by subtle gene variation and mutation and by process of natural selection, were more likely to pass their genes on because they survived in higher numbers. Draw this affect out thousands of generations of moths, all the moths were black, and were again blending into their environment. Industrial revolution butts heads with people's health and well-being, soot output is cut, birch trees regain their white bark, moths adapt again through natural selection, moths are white to match the birch trees.

You can watch evolution in action, every day, through natural selection.

2. Radiation of Species. This is how a species creates derivation within the species. Imagine a boat. The boat is in Chile. The boat takes on ballast, and in that ballast, it takes on the coral polyps and baby jellyfish, and snails that are found only in the waters off Chile. The boat sails to, say, the Galapagos, and pumps some of its ballast water out, and with it, its castaways. At this precise moment, that species has diverged. Each will interact and evolve independent of one another, through natural selection to maximize their chances for survival by naturally selecting the specific attributes of individual members of the species that can best adapt to the environments in which they are found. Draw that out thousands or millions of generations.

I suggest you read a book called "The Beak of the Finch" by Jonathan Weiner. He is a better writer than I, but addresses these exact ideas, in detail, plus many more. Including specific "animals" (Finches and lizards I believe) that have evolved to survive the environment in which they are studied.

I've given you, in those two terms, everything you need to understand how evolution works. The last aspect you'll need to understand is the timeframe. Within these two ideas, you can see the smallest, most incremental steps of change. Imagine the changes that accrue over millions of years and trillions of generations of slight mutations, natural selections, and radiations. Is it that hard to imagine diversity?
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