how is that different then "evolution just happens"? can you explain why evolution happens?


you keep trying to get around the question.. why is that? you cant answer it?

im trying to be patient but i guess you really dont understand. i dont believe in a certain god. im not in favor of creationism. im not even making the argument that there is a god.

im still waiting for your explanation..
your answer is subjective. i can make the argument that there are men that look beyond science to come up with answers but that doesnt meant they are right just like your argument doesnt prove scientists are right..
and i didnt say you took a position on it. i asked you what your position is.. which you still havent clearly answered.

can you explain how its leaps and bounds ahead of intelligent design?


im not making the argument for creationism... as far as us being unique, i dont see little green men walking around. we havent had any evidence of alien life on any other planet.

now heres my question:the big bang theory says the universe was created. where did the universe come from? why was it created, how was it done? does evolution explain that? if evolution is responsible for life then explain how life came from non living matter..
[quote]
Sure i can Evolution is the idea that all species and organisms developed there characteristics through natural selection were the strongest organisms with the most advantage get to breed and spread there more dominant genes..[quote] how does an organism change? we havent seen it happen.

evolution is counter intuitive.. why is it that dinasours died out while crocodiles and sharks remained? evolution is supposed to create superior animals but thats not whats happening in nature.. the Neanderthal died out before gorillas but according to evolution, Neanderthals were supreior becaused they evolved after gorillas.


maybe you should check that definition again. intelligent design states that forces in the universe are too complex to be created randomly and sustained. forces such as gravity are explained as a force that pulls on matter and energy together but we cant explain how one body knows where other bodies are in space. memory is something unique that affects us every day but we dont know how it came to be. rocks dont have memory(that we know of) but we do. intelligence is like gravity. its everywhere. we collect it in our minds and are able to use it and distribute it but we cant explain how.

you should read up on a few topics such as irreducible complexity and specified complexity, fine-tuned universe, and theistic realism.

the bottom line is that evolution doesnt explain how we got here. if you go by the laws of evolution then the chance of a rock evolving into a car is better then a rock evolving into a person.

It doesn't 'just happen' at all. When animals breed there are times when there genes don't join properly. These are genetic mutations that alter the traits of individuals. Although most of the time they do more harm then good every so often new organisms are born with beneficial changes. These lead to it having a higher chance to survive in its enviroment and so reproduce.

can i prove we evolved from microbes? no. but im not a biologist. If evolution wasn't a more likely answer the scientific community wouldn't have embraced it like they have.

Your answer is more subjective. One who comes up with the answers will always be ontop of those who blindly follow there faith.

Evolution has millions of species all forming a very net line. It's almost impossible to look beyond it and simple call it a circumstance. Intelligent design is the cries of old catholics who are too full of it to think of themselves as just another creature.

Were not talking about big bang were talking about Evolution vs Intelligent Design.

How it might have started:
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-bbb090104.php

No its not. Dinosaurs were far to specialised a species, they relied on set factors in the enviroment to survive. Although they were higher in terms of evolution this doesn't mean they had what it took to survive whatever wiped them out. Evolution doesn't state what evolves of something else will survive, no its often simpler more generalised organisms (like plankton) can survive the test of time while more extravagent organisms fall to changes in enviroment.

Intelligent design is the assertion that:

"certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."

I'll say it again were not talking about the universe in relation to ID that would be silly. Were talking about ID in relation to humans versus evolution. Let's stay on track.

Actually the chance of a rock turning into a car in terms of evolution is pretty dang unlikely since a rock ain't got no genes! And evolution was never believed to be started from a rock thats ridiculous it was a blend of water, specific ions and organic molecules.

can you name a specific mutation in an animal that we know of that exists which helped that animal survive better then its predecessor?


so you cant defend your statement with proof but you still chose to believe it.. without proof.. that sounds a lot like faith to me...

not true. the scientific community has overwhelmingly embraced ideas that were proven to be wrong before. you should know that by now...


its no more subjective then you statement..


that still doesnt answer the question. evolution doesnt have millions of species; nature does. saying "almost impossible" is subjective.. it just as easy for me to say its possible because its not completely impossible.

that would be creationism, not ID. again..learn the difference!!

if your statement were tru, how do you account for me? im agnostic...


are you making the statement that evolution didnt start with the universe but later on?

nice try getting out of the question... you know as well as i do that if i started another thread questioning your view of no possibility of intelligent design and if i were to ask you to defend the big bang theory you couldnt do it because it points to intelligence before existance..

the article doesnt say why or how it happened... its an idea without any proof... kinda like the theory of evolution. people seem to forget that its just a theory..

thats not true they were very generalized. they ranged from very small to very large. they were all over the planet. some flew and some swam. some lived in caves and underground.

they were also in larger numbers... that alone should have saved some.. how can you explain that not one single dinasour managed to survive while creatures such as birds and mammals which were much more specialized and in far less numbers survived? can you explain it please?

so in other words, evolution fails to explain the things it should explain.. but you still believe in it. you believe in something that has no proof and is only an idea yet you criticize religious people for doing the same thing?


living things are part of the universe.. youre making it seem like the universe and parts of the universe are separate subjects.. theyre not.

why would it be silly? isnt life part of the universe?

actually, were not talking about it in relation to humans.. were comparing the two topics.
so its ridiculous to imagine that nature can arrange atoms in a way to form a car (that works, with gas already in it) but its not ridicolous to imagine that nature can form a specific sequence of millions of atoms that form a strand of DNA which holds information on how other atoms should be arranged to form specific shapes, structures that upgrade themselves and self replicate and hold memory and information.. all of which happened by chance because you dont believe in intelligent design. can you tell me what the chance of that happening is? i think its pretty unlikely. i bet if i left some dirt in a jar for billions of years, it will not have life. unless the dirt somehow evolved into life which should be able to be explained by evolution.



specific molecules such as what? which ions? how do you know? wheres the proof?

Peppered Moths

Peppered moths

"White and black peppered moths are a classic example of natural selection in action. Before the industrial revolution in Britain most peppered moths were of the pale variety that were well camouflaged against the pale birch trees that they like to sit on. Moths with the mutant black colouring were easily spotted and eaten by birds - giving the white peppered variety an advantage.

Then the industrial revolution came along in the 19th century. Airborne pollution in industrial areas mottled the birch tree bark with soot, and now the mutant black-peppered moths blended better against the darkened bark, while the white variety became much more vulnerable to predators. Over time the mutated black peppered moths were naturally selected to survive and became far more numerous in urban areas than the pale variety."

proof is but a google search away: Search

Notice the only sight claiming they have proof against it is called www.jesus-is-savior.com???

The religious community that you defend has embraced far more...

Then subject it.

Just like God ehh? Well not really evolution can and will eventually be upgraded from theory. Unlike God were you can't disprove it because it can't be proven..

No that would be old catholics. Were do ou suppose the idea id ID came from?

heres a fun quote:

In the case of Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District were parents demanded there kids also be taught ID U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III ruled that;

intelligent design is not science, that it "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents", and concluded that the school district's promotion of it therefore violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

Like i said creationism and ID are hand in hand they are both forms of creation science.

I don't know why are you ID?

Yes there was billions of years when the universe was forming before life dawned.

Your assuming i'd defend the big bang theory? no i wouldn't it confused the drap out of me. If you want to debate that go to a physics forum im sure they'll give you a run for your money. We are debating ID in relation to humans, ID in relation to humans is debatable with evolution the origins of the universe arn't.

It is a theory. And ithere is plenty of evidence even if it is circumstantial. Weres the proof for ID? there is none. It's not science its religion it can't be tested you can't draw hypothesis from it all you can do is assume its right, to take the shortcut straight to heavens gates.

Yes not all dinosaurs were wiped out. Only the large ones with small populations. The smaller ones evolved into more modern day mammals and birds which had an edge over the old world reptiles.

No its doesn't fail to explain the things it should explain. Were does evolution state that simpler organisms might also fair better in there enviroment compared to more complex organisms? There are many roads were creatures have evolved and hit a dead end. And since when does evolution have no proof?

Intelligent design is the assertion that:

"certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."

You can't debate the origins of the universe with the origins of living things thats comparing oranges to motor vehicles.

Yes but what does Big Bang have to do with evolution? Please don't jump out of the subject were here to debate ID for humans against the theory of evolution.

We are debating the two topics and we are talking in relation to humans.

A DNA strand is one molecule one that would still be very simple at the dawn of life.

If i left some Methane (CH4), Ammonia (NH3),
Water (H2O), Hydrogen sulfide (H2S), Carbon dioxide (CO2) or carbon monoxide (CO), and Phosphate (PO43-) id have a pretty good chance.

Abiogenesis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primordial_soup

We could teach how intelligent design was made by God and was perfect, then people began to evolve into idiots. LOL

Yes absolutely they can be taught side by side.

Intelligent design demands that you take a leap of faith. God created everything from nothing.

while

Evolution demands that you take a leap of faith. Somehow from nothing, and I mean nothing... Something came. The Big Bang? Where did the fuel come from for the explosion? etc. and so on.

But yes definately, both should be taught and both should coexist.

i know about the peppered moth.. it cant be proven that there was no peppered moth before that therefore we cant know if it "evolved".

i asked you for the proof.. all of the arguments made for evolution are the same youre making.

on the other hand, do you think this is proof if ID?
how am i defending the religious community? im arguing for ID not creationism.

its opinion not fact...


if thats so, why hasnt it been done yet? i thought "theres so much proof out there"..


the idea of creationism is much older then catholicism.
what specific religion are you teaching if you teach ID?

because i studied it after i studied evolution. i picked the one that makes more sense..


how do you know? can you prove it or is it just a theory?



how do you explain the evolution of intelligence in man? its not because of the size of our brain size. there are animals with bigger brains but are less intelligent.


the thing about circumstantial evidence is that if one part is wrong the whole thing falls apart.
i dnot think you really understand what ID is.. take the words literal. its the idea that the universe tends to make intelligent sense rather then complete randomness.

as for the proof, try math. or universal laws.
evolution cant be tested either. theres no proof of it. it just draws conclusions. do you think theres a possibility youre wrong?

theres no proof of that..


show me 3 animals; one before evolution, one first generation mutation, and one 2nd generation mutation. good luck.. theres no proof..


who said natural selection is undirected? the idea is directed... an undirected process is something like flipping a coin.

sure you can. we don know when life was first created and where. all we have are theories. there isnt a shred of proof.
theyre both theories that can be proven, they both indicate intelligence..
were actually here to debate whether we should tech ID in school but apparently theres no room for extra ideas in school. but if you want to debate ID for humans against the theory of evolution thats fine too.
can you tell me of any other molecule that is just as big or bigger?


you think a little sperm will be hopping around in there? i doubt it..


how does this fit into your evolution theory?



"In the natural sciences, abiogenesis, the question of the origin of life, is the study of how life on Earth might have emerged from non-life."



"By the middle of the 19th century Pasteur and other scientists demonstrated that living organisms did not arise spontaneously from non-living matter"

The big bang theory and the theory of evolution are two very different theories that approach two very different subjects.

__________________
Society is produced by our wants and government by our wickedness ~Thomas Paine

I suggest you investigate the findings of Peter and Rosemary Grant who for over 30 years have observed and documented species adapting to changes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_and_Rosemary_Grant

__________________
Society is produced by our wants and government by our wickedness ~Thomas Paine

Yes we can we were around when the black pepper moth came to be we saw it.