In a world where Private and Catholic schools trump every government offering...

In a world where all the countries who have better education systems than ours use this magical concept...

In a world where we keep upping the budget on Education without getting any results....

Why on Earth aren't we supporting a Voucher system in the USA?

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Woodrow Wilson

The money for vouchers would come from general school funds and the schools don't need to lose more money. If the parents get funds from public money the religious could no longer teach religion it would be against the rules.

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Acceptance is the answer

"Im a Tarte, what! you want some of this?"

Not all private schools trump all public schools. Public schools in nice areas are great.

I think the bigger issue is that private schools have methods that public schools are slow to adopt due to some of the institutions entrenched in it. The public schools need reforms such as the ability to fire bad teachers, give raises to good teachers, increase teacher-student ratios (if private schools become the norm, expcet these to drop in private schools), and allow for more flexibility of method.
For this reason I prefer charter schools. They create competition with public schools rather than replace them and force public schools to take a closer look at policy.

I don't like the idea at all of all schools being for profit or for private interest. There is more to school than preparing for "the jobs of tomorrow". It's about making responsible citizens and able thinkers. Education is a public good.
And there is also the fact that none of us should pay for religious indoctrination of other people's children. The education of others' children is collectively good. The religious indoctrination is not. That's what church is for. If you want to combine church and school, pay for it yourself.
And if you want kids to be taught a contrarian and unhelpful conception of science in the name of religion- then you definitely should pay for that yourself. I certainly don't think the public should pay for something collectively detrimental!

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"Man lives in the sunlit world of that which he believes to be reality. But unseen by most is an underworld, a place that is just as real... but not as brightly lit... A DARK SIDE!"
-opening from Tales From the Darkside

Not quite. Schools get paid money for each kid that they have in their school. The national average is about $8,900 (This is often nearly twice as much as private school tuition). If a voucher system was utilized, the schools "losing" money would have less kids to take care of. The ratio of money to student wouldn't change.

Besides, if the school became bad after losing money the students could switch to a better one. That's the beauty of choice.

Well there are exceptions to every rule, but for the most part any given private school does better than any given public school. I'm not just talking about comparing intercity schools to boarding schools here.

Besides, we're talking about all the schools here, not the surprisingly good public school here and there. The fact that theres are a few good public schools doesn't solve the problem of all the horrible schools in other areas. The voucher system would. If the public schools were that good, then nobody would leave if a voucher system was instituted.

With the teacher's union so firmly rooted into the public system you are dreaming if you think any of those things could ever happen in public schools.

But if students can't choose to go to that charter school, tough. The public schools have a government supported monopoly, it doesn't matter if they suck, kids have to go, so why would they bother competing? They get their pay-check either way.

Charter schools would be nice if
A. All public schools became charter schools
B. Students could choose any of them to go to

If the public schools are as good as you say, nobody would leave and it wouldn't be a problem. Unrestricted vouchers would give public schools what they need to be good, competition.

I never said there wasn't. Do you think students, given a choice, would choose to go to schools that thought that was it?

You want the government deciding what a "responsible citizen" or an "able thinker" is?

As are a plethora of other things we have that private corporations provide us with.

"Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology. It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned. As such it is used pejoratively."

Religious schools don't indoctrinate their religion, they teach their religion. A world of difference there.

It's funny you should say that, especially considering how catholic schools trump public schools in the education of all fields, including science. So if all those rascaly religious schools are instilling a hatred of science into their students, then public schools must be trying to suck because they still get humiliated by those schools in the liberal arts and the sciences.

__________________
Woodrow Wilson

Because thats the taxpayers dollars funding private programs.

Why do we subsidize ethanol then?

Why do we have a problem with this even though it works in all of the countries who have better education systems than we do?

Better question, why is it okay for the government to fund a failing monopoly that keeps poor kids poor and rich kids rich but not okay to invest taxpayer's money into students being able to choose a good education instead of being saddled with a crappy one?

__________________
Woodrow Wilson

And how is this in any way different than allowing charter schools? Other than being more instable?
Vouchers will not end up being equal for differing schools. Either it will cost more than the vouchers to send kids to the best schools or no one will send their kids to any but the best schools... limited only by ability to transport the kids there.
If the best schools cannot control which students or how many students enter, I'm expecting they will no longer be so great... but there is obviously a problem that some kids will still be stuck going to schools that are nearby out of necessity.
Charter schools compete with public schools on a local level. The public schools are a baseline. And that ensures that the baseline is not a profit motive.
Because in a profit-motive, the baseline would be "economy education". Just like every market, there would be a niche for cheap. Just what we need.
Schools exist in part to make up for and turn around stratification... not to make more of it.


You ever stop to think that's because it's where kids go whose parents are PAYING for it. Kids with more motivated parents will do better.
Charter schools, on the other hand, are actually making a difference for kids who live in those areas where the parents are unmotivated and clueless about education.

No. The market would adjust by locality... as it always does. There would be no baseline. Inner city parents with no ability to send their kids elsewhere will be stuck with the schools that build around them... who will all be focused on profit.
They have no non-profit, public service oriented baseline to compete against.
That's why charter schools are better. They start with the bottom line being public education... rather than whatever is most profitable for the given area.

Believe it or not, despite the hype, we can do worse than public schools.
Vouchers will at the very least maintain the current level of disparity, while also bringing issues of religion into the equation.
Charter schools start against public schools and raise the standards for both... anywhere they are built.



Even some in the teacher's unions are coming to realize that the status quo will ultimately make them irrelevant. The unions are going to have to adjust and while it may be slow, it's coming.



No. That would change nothing. The charter schools would merely be competing with no baseline rather than starting from the public school baseline. Charter schools need to improve over the public schools to stay in business. Their success forces public schools to change policy to keep up funding.

Then we'd just continue on with the same geographic disparities. A charter school in some suburb would be the best. The inner city kids who couldn't afford the transportation are stuck going to the inner city one.

That would be your voucher system.
It would be the same (*)(*)(*)(*), different pot.
Of course the different pot is that they are now 100% profit-motivated.



Charter schools do this already.



They don't choose. Parents do.
And civics is undervalued these days. Most people are purely concerned that their kids will be able to earn a living... and this is assuming only the parents who give a (*)(*)(*)(*).



Do you want for-profit corporations deciding? At least government can be held accountable to the will of voters.
It's nice to say "I want individuals deciding" but it doesn't work that way. Individuals generally make self-centered choices without regard for the larger community.



Most of which involve a form of local monopoly or government contract.



They should not be teaching their religion on my dime.
Like I said, their kids' education indirectly helps me and the rest of society. Religion... not so much.
And in the cases where religion is disguised as science (ie ID, the elephant in the room), it is actually harmful. The last thing we need is a generation of scientists taught to ignore fact for faith.



Catholics are not the primary offenders. The Vouchers system is going to be taken up be evangelicals as well.
Catholics aren't on board with the whole "dinosaurs walked with man" school of "scientific" "thought".

And as usual, you're overlooking the difference between a school that costs money to enter vs. one that doesn't. Vouchers won't change that as there will ultimately be costs associated with the better schools. And better schools will seek to keep out kids that will drag them down.

__________________
"Man lives in the sunlit world of that which he believes to be reality. But unseen by most is an underworld, a place that is just as real... but not as brightly lit... A DARK SIDE!"
-opening from Tales From the Darkside

I actually agree with you haha i just dont think we should cut from public schools if we are going to do this we have to add funding for it not cut it from some place else.

The number of students needing an education isn't going to magically increase if some get vouchers for a private education. The total amount of funding won't change, unless they decided to put more money per student into the system, but that decision is entirely separate from the decision on school vouchers.

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"It is extremely difficult for our contemporaries to conceive of the conditions of free banking because they take government interference with banking for granted and as necessary"

-- Ludwig von Mises

We just can't take public money and give it to private education. Especially if it is a religious private school.

__________________
Acceptance is the answer

"Im a Tarte, what! you want some of this?"