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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2007, 10:05 AM
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Default Legal Tender

Quote:
Originally Posted by stekim";p=&quot View Post
Why you keep saying the opposite I simply don't know. But it's factually wrong. Sorry.
What you ignore is the obvious fact that the legal tender laws create a de facto monopoly, as we once argued here and as I explained in more detail here.

Quote:
And, unlike your assertion, you can indeed print your own money. Entire towns do it, in fact:
Towns do - but a town or two doesn't threaten the virtual monopoly of the Federal Reserve. If you do something more widespread which does threaten this monopoly, the following happens:

'Liberty Dollars' Can Buy Users A Prison Term, U.S. Mint Warns

"So says the U.S. Mint, which would like to remind Liberty Dollar users that since the United States already has its own currency, the only thing Liberty Dollars buy in these parts is a jail term."


Link
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2007, 10:19 AM
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Default government "rights"

Stekim, here you say the government has no right to force you to buy anything.

If the government has no right to force you to buy something, on what basis do you claim it has a right to force someone to use a currency it mandates to pay their private debts with?
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2007, 12:54 PM
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Default .

Quote:
What you ignore is the obvious fact that the legal tender laws create a de facto monopoly, as we once argued here and as I explained in more detail here.
Oh, so it's now de facto? You claimed two things: 1. You are forced to use U.S. government currency. You are not. So that's completely false. You are only forced to accept U.S. currency as payment of a debt DENOMINATED IN THAT CURRENCY. If I loan you Euros, for example, I am not forced to accept dollars in repayment. If I loan you 6 pigs I am not forced to take dollars in return. So you got THAT wrong, too. Simply factually incorrect. 2. You claimed you could not print your own money. Well you can. So that's false too.

Quote:
Towns do - but a town or two doesn't threaten the virtual monopoly of the Federal Reserve. If you do something more widespread which does threaten this monopoly, the following happens:

'Liberty Dollars' Can Buy Users A Prison Term, U.S. Mint Warns
You can either mint your own money or you can't. And you can. Simple as that. The reason it does not threaten the dollar is because no one wants your dollars. So what? And for the last time, The U.S. Mint claims that Liberty Dollars are meant to compete with the circulating COINAGE of the United States and such competition consequently is a criminal act. They are even denominated with a U.S. Dollar figure! You can't do that. The paper currency those towns issued didn't do that. And guess what? No problems. 100% legal.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2007, 01:27 PM
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Default You're skewing

Quote:
Originally Posted by stekim";p=&quot View Post
Quote:
What you ignore is the obvious fact that the legal tender laws create a de facto monopoly, as we once argued here and as I explained in more detail here.
Oh, so it's now de facto?
Not just now. If you'll look at those other links, I've stated the same thing over and over.

Take into account the trillions used to pay taxes and private debts - and the money then recirculated from the those payments, and its not too hard to see how the de facto monopoly takes root.

Quote:
You claimed two things: 1. You are forced to use U.S. government currency. You are not. So that's completely false.
You are forced to use their currency for all public and private debts. That is a fact.


Quote:
2. You claimed you could not print your own money. Well you can. So that's false too.
What I claimed is that the government may very well threaten or take action against you if you do.

Quote:

You can either mint your own money or you can't. And you can.
Then why is the government threatening people who do?
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2007, 05:10 AM
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Default .

Quote:
You are forced to use their currency for all public and private debts. That is a fact.
No, it's not. You are only forced to use their currency in repayment of debts denominted in their currency. That's not at all the same. Not even close. We loan companies money in Euros every day. We take Euros in return. No dollars used. Hence, we clearly aren't being forced to accept dollars.

Quote:
What I claimed is that the government may very well threaten or take action against you if you do.
Only to the extent that your currency violates a very narrow law. Which is why ONLY the Liberty Dollar is being "threatened" and no others are. And note that not a single person has EVER been stopped from using Liberty Dollars, even though they clearly violate the law because they are coins. The other currencies aren't and not a single person has ever been "threatened" for using them. Not even once. So face it, your conclusions here are based on facts that aren't even facts.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2007, 07:04 AM
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Default Legal Tender

Quote:
Originally Posted by stekim";p=&quot View Post
No, it's not. You are only forced to use their currency in repayment of debts denominted in their currency.
It still results in the same de facto monopoly.

From the Federal Reserve's website:

"Is U.S. currency legal tender for all debts?

According to the "Legal Tender Statute" (section 5103 of title 31 of the U.S. Code), "United States coins and currency (including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." This means that all U.S. money, as identified above, when tendered to a creditor legally satisfies a debt to the extent of the amount (face value) tendered.

However, no federal law mandates that a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services not yet provided. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills."

Quote:
Only to the extent that your currency violates a very narrow law.
Which law did they violate? - because they don't resemble U.S. currency at all - unless the person making the comparison is an absolute moron.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2007, 07:20 AM
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Default .

Quote:
According to the "Legal Tender Statute" (section 5103 of title 31 of the U.S. Code), "United States coins and currency (including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." This means that all U.S. money, as identified above, when tendered to a creditor legally satisfies a debt to the extent of the amount (face value) tendered.
You left out a small fact (again). Only when said debt is denominated in U.S. currency. If it's not, you aren't required to take it.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2007, 07:27 AM
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Default You're leaving out things also, my friend

Quote:
Originally Posted by stekim";p=&quot View Post

You left out a small fact (again). Only when said debt is denominated in U.S. currency. If it's not, you aren't required to take it.
You left out one large fact - when is a tax debt - and this is TRILLIONS of dollars - ever denominated in anything other than legal tender? Same goes for payments to Federal Reserve member banks. Again, it's a de facto monopoly.

And here's why - THEY DON'T WANT COMPETITION

And you didn't answer my question about the Liberty Dollar.
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"We should never forget that everything Adolf Hilter did in Germany was 'legal'" - Martin Luther King Jr., from a Birmingham jail, April 16, 1963.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2007, 07:28 AM
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Default You going to...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truth-Bringer";p=&quot View Post
Stekim, here you say the government has no right to force you to buy anything.

If the government has no right to force you to buy something, on what basis do you claim it has a right to force someone to use a currency it mandates to pay their private debts with?
You going to answer this question, stekim? Or continue to avoid it?
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“How fortunate for leaders that men do not think.” - Adolf Hitler

"We should never forget that everything Adolf Hilter did in Germany was 'legal'" - Martin Luther King Jr., from a Birmingham jail, April 16, 1963.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2007, 03:26 PM
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Default the candidates on tax reform

well interestingly enough the candidates' views on the budget deficits have not been taking center-stage in the mainstream media. A good quote from Ron Paul is discussed here:
http://www.votegopher.com/issue.php?issue=1&can=7

"tax reform will be a mirage until..."
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