This topic is often over-simplified I think.

For example, lets use the example you offered of the Irish. A key component you didnt raise and thats quite important is that the Irish can blend into a society that is majority white..its much harder to truly discriminate against nationality that share the same race or to continue it. They simply look too much like "us".

Being black has the disadvantage of once demonized *as it has been and as would need to be if slavery were to exist and be supported* it remains easy to continue to do so because they can never really "blend" into the mainstream society the way the Irish could.

Its also not about "whites" owing "blacks", at least not in my view.

Its more about recognzing that a group contributed a great deal to building the nation but were never paid for nor were able to share in the benefits that resulted. Just because slavery ends doesnt mean that the societal ills that slavery created for black folks in america ended....those ills take much more time to rectify.

So its not about a group owing another group, its about trying to find a way for the group that has been disadvantaged by this history and ensuing problems created to become as advantaged as those who DID benefit from that history and its results.

The problems that stem from slavery dont just apply to descendents of black slaves either since to support such an industry meant that a cultural view of blacks in general had to be created (a negative one that would rationalize why it was ok to do to them what we wouldnt tolerate being done to ourselves.....a different standard for them than for us). This social ill that arose, jim crow laws, the racism etc were applied to all black folks and not just the descendents of slaves.

Proposals I have heard that I rather liked were more about funding programs and measures that would help address the inequalities the system created. You cant just simply end the bad rules and expect all the results from those bad rules to disappear, ending bad rules or laws is simply PART of the solution...but not the entire solution.

Lastly, the solution isnt about whites giving blacks anything...its about the nation together working to mitigate the damage that was caused for black folks due to slavery and their unique history in the US. The fact that they had no say in how the nation developed even as their labor helped build it, the fact that they earned wealth but were never paid so they could not pass it down, the fact that they were blocked from education and ownership which also placed them at a disadvantage as a group from developing along side those who didnt have such restrictions placed upon them due to somthing they could not change..their ethnicity.

I would also submit that the Irish were not treated "worse" than blacks in america. They did suffer discrimination but they didnt suffer being forced onto slave ships, being owned, being sold, being bred like cattle, into forced hard labor, whipped and beaten as standard treatment, families forced apart because members were sold off etc.

As an immigrant to the U.S.A., I sometimes wonder, what percentage of people that are living here in the U.S. had forefathers who owned slaves? 10%? 20%? I can't imagine it being more than that? This country is made up of over 300 Million people, most of us living together in relative peace and prosperity. Most of us coming from different areas around the world, well after Slavery had been abolished in the U.S. I'm from the Dominican Republic, my Neighbors to the right of me are from India, across the street (and former Head of the Homeowners Association) the family is African American, to my right the woman is Costa Rican, and the Husband Cuban, to the right of them, the woman is Jewish and the Husband African American, and all around us are mixed couples. Again across the street, there is a Cuban with a Jewish Woman, next to them an American Husband has an African American Wife, next to them is an Oriental guy with an American Wife and so on and so on.
We are a society that has intermarried, that has people from many different countries and again, are living together in peace and prosperity, while the world outside the U.S. tears itself apart.
Honestly what the heck do I owe you? I am America now. My Neighbors are America now. Even if you look at the small percentage who's forefathers DID have slaves, you are going to tell me that it is fair to punish them for something that their fathers, father's, father's, father did to your father's father's father's father?

I grew up in some of the most depressing and poor neighborhoods in Rhode Island. A Democrat state that in recent history only voted Republican for Reagan's second term. There was this huge government run housing project that was a couple of blocks from a home we had just rented out, that was probably 90% black.
When we first moved there, being a "white" Hispanic we were immediately singled out and "roughed up" a few times. One time when I was about 12, some black guy that was probably 16 or 17 walked up to me, without any provocation and picked me up and slammed me on the concrete Floor. What did I do to him?
Later, Some people in that neighborhood, were upset over some changes to how their rent was computed (most just paid about $25.00 a month, regardless of income), and so they burned the whole place down.
I asked my mother, "Why are those people so angry? She asked if I remember seeing "Roots", and I said yes, so she then said that they were angry because they still thought that white people owed them over the slavery situation.
I pointed out to her, "But Mom, I didn't do anything to these people? Why were they mad at me?"
She then explained, "When you think someone owes you something, and they think they owe you nothing, then it creates anger within you. This anger is like a corrosive acid that eats away at you, and destroys you from within. While the person who thinks he owes you nothing walks around freely, living his life happily, you are walking around miserably, feeling like you are owed something. This is why God tells us, that we are to forgive those indebted to us, and forgive those who have sinned against us, because if we don't forgive, we can never be happy, and God wants us happy. We will always walk around feeling like someone owes us, and that feeling will never go away."
I then said to my Mother, "Mom, how do I forgive that man who threw me on the floor?" She told me to pray to God to forgive that man, and pray that God helps that man find peace. So that's what I did, and my Anger was gone.
Over the years my mother has taught me to never expect anyone to do anything for me, even when they promise that they will do it, because many people do not keep their promises. She said, "If they keep their promises, you are pleasantly surprised, and if they don't, well you never expected them to anyway, so there's nothing to be disappointed about"
I can tell you that I'm rarely disappointed.
She also taught me to be independent, "Never place your life in the hands of others. Presidents, Governments, Bosses, Friends and Associates all may say that you are important to them, but in the end you must shape your own destiny, YOU must take care of your own family! God has given each of us special gifts, and you are to find that gift, that talent that he gave you, and YOU, no one else must fulfill that destiny. If you leave it in someone else's hands, God will not be pleased. God is always watching and he's always waiting to reward us for hard work, but we must place our faith in him and him alone, and not in the actions of men."

Maybe I should just let you talk to my Mom.

Unfortunately, what I'm hearing from Obama is, "You can't do it on your own".
What does that imply? You're not the master of your destiny, you must leave it in Obama's hands. That is not a Christian Principal.

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http://www.nosocialism.com
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America is not a Socialist country, this is why the only democrats who ever win, are democrats who SOUND like Republicans (Hello Bill Clinton - Low taxes, Free Trade, Welfare Reform, Era of Big Government Over - Sounds Republican).

Will reparations be prorated to reflect all previous payments for welfare, affirmative action programs, subsidized "Black Only" colleges, jobs programs, food stamps, section 8 housing, special after school programs, special school lunch programs, remedial reading and math programs, etc. etc. etc.?
If so, then I figure YOU OWE ME around $14,372.00. And No, I won't take your check.

That is one of the best post that I have read since I have been on these boards.

Good Job.


"Understand it takes a woman to make a stronger man, as we both get strong."

I also found this aspect of that post preposterous, were the Irish singled out for poor treatment, absolutely, they didn't quite "blend" into society as easily as others, they were distinctly different than other Europeans with their Red Hair and/or Freckles, and of course there's that Irish accent.
At the same time though, to say they were treated "worse", what could possibly be worse to forcible labor for the black man, and the women being used by many slave owners as their own personal sex toys. And worse was the selling off of the kids in many cases. There's no way you can say that the Irish had it worse.

That being said though, This morning as I went to get the paper, I noticed my Neighbor across the street, a successful attorney and a true African American, not one who emigrated here from the Carribean or something, and so I asked him. "Reggie, let me ask you a question, do you know if your ancestors were slaves?" He looked at me quixotically, and said, "Yes, why do you ask?"
"I'm just curious, we were discussing on the Forums things that included reparations, so I'm just wondering, what do you think about that?"
He went on to say that when he first found out (after watching Roots) that his ancestors were slaves, he was very angry at white people for a long time. Later however, he found out that there were black people involved in the slave trade as well, and there were White People running the Underground Railroad trying to help. Then there was the Civil War, which was largely fought over the slave trade in the South, and a lot of white people died because of that.
He went on to tell me how after high school, he spent a couple of years basically doing nothing, hanging out with friends but it started to get a bit old. All these guys would talk about was how, "The White Man was keeping them down". And he realized that he didn't want to be that way. He didn't want to be bitter any more. So he made up his mind, enrolled at the Community College, ended up doing well enough to get a Scholarship at Florida International, and from there got a Scholarship to get his Law Degree at Barry University and here he is. Living the dream, in a great neighborhood.
Finally he said, "The biggest problem with Reparations, is that it focuses on the past. This is a different world that we live in, a world where anyone, regardless of their background, can become SOMEBODY". He says, "Reparations look at the tangled mess of the past, and I'd rather look towards my kids futures."

__________________
http://www.nosocialism.com
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America is not a Socialist country, this is why the only democrats who ever win, are democrats who SOUND like Republicans (Hello Bill Clinton - Low taxes, Free Trade, Welfare Reform, Era of Big Government Over - Sounds Republican).

I've got a bit of Irish blood. Maybe I could get some reparations.

I am sure you will find a wide variety of views from black folks...they arent of one single mind or one single view.

History and the past create our present. Its a hard fact to ignore.

As I said, I think this gets oversimplified because it isnt about whites vs blacks nor about making white people feel guilty over being white or even about living in the past. Its simply about recognizing that many conditions we have today are directly derived from the slave industry and black people have been very negatively affected as a group by that and those negative affects exist in the NOW, in the present.

That doesnt mean things havent improved over the last 100 years, they have but the social ills for blacks that are rooted in their unique history within america exist and CAN be addressed so that the process of rectifying that can be hastened.

For instance...both power and wealth are largely inherited. Blacks were blocked from that while most of the power and wealth were being claimed and divided up in the US.

So while I agree with your neighbor that bitterness is useless and personal achievement is a worthy goal....we are talking of a much larger issue and one thats part of us culturally and therefore is pretty resistant to just getting better all by itself.

I also dont think its the burden for whites to carry while blacks recieve *I think thats the image so many conjure up in their mind and cant get past and then feel defensive and resistant*, its a problem we should ALL be working on together as a nation to fix....that includes blacks working towards the goal along side the rest of the nation. I cant imagine black folks wanting to be left out of the solution...creating it or implementing it.

Thank you very much for such kind praise.