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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2008, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by CB4 View Post
I dont' really like McCain, but his experience is very important. I feel however that though Obama is inexperienced, he has potential to be a good leader

However at this time he not ready to lead the American people. Problem im not sold on McCain either
I'd rather choose according to ones judgement.
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Old 08-12-2008, 05:14 AM
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I beg to differ. Hardliner foreign policy is one of the most disasterous types.
Yup, attacking Nazi Germany sure was disastrous. They should have been nicer to poor little Adolf. I'm sure he was really a good person with a warm heart and all they really needed to do was speak to him peacefully.
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Old 08-12-2008, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by E_Pluribus_Venom View Post
I'd rather choose according to ones judgement.
i agree, however i feel that neither candidate has proven himself. However I must admit Obama is fascinating.
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Old 08-12-2008, 05:17 AM
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Yup, attacking Nazi Germany sure was disastrous. They should have been nicer to poor little Adolf. I'm sure he was really a good person with a warm heart and all they really needed to do was speak to him peacefully.
This demonstrates the problem of hardliner policy.
To you guys EVERY world event is WWII and EVERY "unfriendly" power is Nazi Germany!

There are times for war and for the use of force. When this is your FIRST reaction to every potential problem however, it is disaster.
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Old 08-12-2008, 05:46 AM
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There are times for war and for the use of force. When this is your FIRST reaction to every potential problem however, it is disaster.
Quote:
TBILISI, Georgia (CNN) -- Bombs rocked Tbilisi early Saturday morning as the fight between Georgia and Russia over a breakaway region intensified and moved into the Georgian capital.

Government buildings, including the Parliament, were evacuated when the bombs fell.

Heavy casualties have reported on both sides since Russian forces moved Friday into South Ossetia, a pro-Russian autonomous region of Georgia.

Russian bombers were targeting Georgia's economic infrastructure, National Security Council secretary Alexander Lomaia said, including the country's largest Black Sea port, Poti, and the main road connecting the southern part of Georgia with the east and the airport.

Georgian television reported that the port had been destroyed........
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe...tia/index.html

Does this look like a potential problem to you? What more does it take for this to stop being a "potential" problem?
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Old 08-12-2008, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Raharu Haruha View Post
Lol that's an awfully long article for someone who supposedly accomplished nothing.
Why don't you just make a list of McSame's accomplishments and we talk about it.
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Old 08-12-2008, 06:40 AM
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Does this look like a potential problem to you? What more does it take for this to stop being a "potential" problem?
1. How does this affect the US?
2. While the response was disproportionate (much like that of another country the US NEVER denounces even lightly), Georgia's initial action was not exactly kosher. The problems stem from multiple nations, making diplomacy and moderation the best way to begin coming to a solution.
3. Even if it is a justifiable time to use force, all threats are empty... as we have our hands tied at the moment.
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Old 08-12-2008, 07:12 AM
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1. How does this affect the US?
Georgia is a strong ally of the US. Despite the fact that it's a small country with little power, it is part of the Coalition of the Willing and had to pull out 1000 troops out of 2000 from Iraq to fight the Russians.

If Mr Saakashvili's Government collapses it would be a bitter setback to Western interests. The Georgian Government could be replaced by something much more accommodating to Moscow.

That has other strategic consequences because Georgia is the route for vital oil and gas pipelines to the West from the Caspian region.

Perhaps the worst result of all is the lesson this military conflict teaches the Russian people. Under Mr Putin, Russia has re-established a tough authoritarianism and introduced fervent nationalism.

The more Moscow can successfully engage in military adventures, the more it will feel this approach will lead Russia back to its former glory. Along that path lie infinite dangers for everyone.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...48-663,00.html

Quote:
2. While the response was disproportionate (much like that of another country the US NEVER denounces even lightly), Georgia's initial action was not exactly kosher. The problems stem from multiple nations, making diplomacy and moderation the best way to begin coming to a solution.
Whatever Georgia had done initially, Russia's response had gone way beyond protecting its peacekeepers, repelling the Georgian attack, or anything for which a remotely colorable case might be made.

Quote:
3. Even if it is a justifiable time to use force, all threats are empty... as we have our hands tied at the moment.
McCain was the first one who stridently expressed his opposition to Russia, while others, including Obama, honestly had no idea what was going on. But later on, the others, even Obama, changed their views.

Here is what Obama said first:

Quote:
I strongly condemn the outbreak of violence in Georgia, and urge an immediate end to armed conflict. Now is the time for Georgia and Russia to show restraint, and to avoid an escalation to full scale war. Georgia’s territorial integrity must be respected. All sides should enter into direct talks on behalf of stability in Georgia, and the United States, the United Nations Security Council, and the international community should fully support a peaceful resolution to this crisis.
And here is what he said later, after changing his views:

Quote:
I just spoke separately with Secretary Rice and President Saakashvili about the grave crisis in Georgia. I told President Saakashvili that I was deeply concerned about the well-being of the people of Georgia.
Over the last two days, Russia has escalated the crisis in Georgia through it’s clear and continued violation of Georgia’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. On Friday, August 8, Russian military forces invaded Georgia. I condemn Russia’s aggressive actions and reiterate my call for an immediate ceasefire. Russia must stop its bombing campaign, cease flights of Russian aircraft in Georgian airspace, and withdraw its ground forces from Georgia. Both sides should allow humanitarian assistance to reach civilians in need. Russia also must end its cyber war against Georgian government websites. Georgia’s territorial integrity must be respected.
Looks like someone looked it up for Obama and now he finally knows what the hell is going on. On the other hand, McCain is much more experienced and knows the situation better so his quick judgement was correct.

http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsid...and-mccai.html

Last edited by Mazhi; 08-12-2008 at 07:27 AM.
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Old 08-12-2008, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Mazhi View Post
The more Moscow can successfully engage in military adventures, the more it will feel this approach will lead Russia back to its former glory. Along that path lie infinite dangers for everyone.
And you think sword-rattling will ease the nationalist tendencies?
Russia was not attempting to take over Georgia. It was attacking Georgia (in an overblown manner) for what it saw as "terrorist" actions against a pro-Russia segment of Georgia's population.
This is exactly the kind of thing where diplomacy is necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazhi View Post
Whatever Georgia had done initially, Russia's response had gone way beyond protecting its peacekeepers, repelling the Georgian attack, or anything for which a remotely colorable case might be made.
Agreed on that. But sword-rattling isn't the best way to deal with the problem when both sides are clearly in the wrong.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazhi View Post
Looks like someone looked it up for Obama and now he finally knows what the hell is going on. On the other hand, McCain is much more experienced and knows the situation better so his quick judgement was correct.
Not exactly. He did not give the exact conditions for why Russia should back off. He implied force rather than diplomacy... which is exactly how you increase animosity.
Russia deserved criticism... but Georgia is not innocent.
If all it is is saber-rattling, then we're done... nothing gets accomplished.
The diplomacy afterward is what matters.
And BTW, diplomacy in the region does imply that Russia would have to stop attacking... How the hell else could you have regional diplomacy?
And I'd still like to know exactly what we would have done had Russia simply told us to (*)(*)(*)(*) off.
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Old 08-12-2008, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Raharu Haruha View Post
Barak Obama is a good politician. McCain is an experienced politician.

In response to the Russia/Georgia conflict, both persons said this (as reported by the Wall Street Journal).



Obama's answer seems wise but is ultimately empty. McCain's answer is more confident. McCain has more experience in the area, and since Obama cannot come up with an opinion out of experience he must rely on his cunning abilities to sound good. Obama is a good politician, but not very decisive or experienced.

Note: Obma did strengthen his position later, but that was his initial reaction.
Let me throw my opinion in if you do not mind. Experience is WAY too overated when it comes to politics. Take Hillary Clinton for an example she has about thirty years of political experience thats is of course accounting for years outside of congress, but given the stellar service record. Hillary drop the ball when she made an awful "gas tax holiday" proposal to voters in the democratic presidental race. Now I know voters want solutions to rising energy prices, but come on. John Mccain made the same mental blunder when he made the same "gas tax holiday" statement. Combined Mccain and Clinton have what close to SIXTY YEARS of experience. Barack Obama is not perfect either. Take the Russian/Georgia conflict for an example. Obama statement may givens certain voters the wrong impression of him being naive, but if you break down what he said even further. Obama knows he does not have a clear cut stratedy, but he is willing to adjust to whatever reasonable plan as long as it works. Whatever he lacks in experience he more than makes up for in judgement. It seems to me , and correct me if I am wrong that in politics the more experience an politician amounts the dumber he or she gets. No offense to hillary clinton but the facts tell me so.
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