My thoughts on the VP debate - Page 2

Liberty · #11 (**permalink**) 10-03-2008, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JavaBlack

That could go a long way toward bringing around some of the Jewish Democrats who might have been iffy about Obama.

I don't think that Jewish Democrats will be swayed, but will hold their noses and push the button for Obama anyway.

Did you happen to read of the leaked assessment of Obama by British ambassador Sheinwald yesterday? He suggests that the Israel/Palestine conflict would be a low priority for an Obama administration. Maybe Biden was doing some damage control.

Quote:

Sir Nigel concludes that searching for a deal between Israel and the Palestinians is "unlikely to be a top priority for Obama" and he expresses concern about his protectionist trade policy, while noting that he has "repositioned himself somewhat towards free trade".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...dor-to-US.html

TheHat · #12 (**permalink**) 10-03-2008, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raytri

Another interesting question was the "what is the role of the VP's office?"

While it might be to esoteric a topic for the average viewer to care about, it featured Biden giving a lecture on the constitution and tied VP wannabe Palin to the current scarily unpopular VP, Cheney. Because of the relative obscurity of the issue, I have no idea if it will matter to regular voters. But if it does, the Dems gain.

How do you figure that?

He couldnt even explain what the VP does...lol.

He said that Article I was the Executive Branch and that the VP is not in both branches of government.

If anyone takes the time to read it, he just doesnt know what he is talking about.

Shiva_TD · #13 (**permalink**) 10-03-2008, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liberty

It was interesting that in trying to make the point that the Vice President works in the Executive Branch, he cites Article 1 of the Constitution, which of course deals with the Legislative Branch.

It it within Article 1 of the Constitution that the vice president is given the single duty to serve as President of the Senate. About that, the Constitution is indeed explicit.

But, I challenge anyone to show me where the Constitution says that "the primary role of the vice president of the United States of America is to support the president of the United States of America, give that president his or her best judgment when sought."

I caught the Article I statement as well and then realized that Biden was referring to the fact that the Legislative under Article I and the Executive under Article II are different branches of the government. He was countering Palin where she implied taking her role as President of the Senate would be a daily task. Biden is fundamentally correct that the Vice President only becomes involved in the affairs of the Senate in the event of a tie vote.

As for the role of the Vice President that is established by simple definition. The word Vice in this context is a preposition meaning "in place of" so in this context the Vice President serves "in place of" the president in many functions. For example, the Vice President can go on diplomatic missions "in place of" the President.

So the role of the Vice President is simple, they serve "in place of" the President in many affairs.

The Jovial One · #14 (**permalink**) 10-03-2008, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHat

How do you figure that?

He couldnt even explain what the VP does...lol.

He said that Article I was the Executive Branch and that the VP is not in both branches of government.

If anyone takes the time to read it, he just doesnt know what he is talking about.

The sudden neocon concern for the constitution after 8 years of using it for toilet paper is touching.

But yes, Biden was correct. Article I DOES define the duties of the VP.

Quote:

The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided.

He did NOT say Article I of the Constitition was the Executive Branch. He said Article I DEFINES THE DUTIES of the Vice President, and those DUTIES are within the Executive Branch.

Here's what he actually said. To aid in reading comprehension, I will highlight the relevant parts.

Quote:

BIDEN: Vice President Cheney has been the most dangerous vice president we've had probably in American history. The idea he doesn't realize that Article I of the Constitution defines the role of the vice president of the United States, that's the Executive Branch. He works in the Executive Branch. He should understand that. Everyone should understand that.

And the primary role of the vice president of the United States of America is to support the president of the United States of America, give that president his or her best judgment when sought, and as vice president, to preside over the Senate, only in a time when in fact there's a tie vote. The Constitution is explicit.

The only authority the vice president has from the legislative standpoint is the vote, only when there is a tie vote. He has no authority relative to the Congress. The idea he's part of the Legislative Branch is a bizarre notion invented by Cheney to aggrandize the power of a unitary executive and look where it has gotten us. It has been very dangerous.

Now, Article II of the constitution describes the Executive Branch, which includes...according to section 4...

Quote:

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States...

If there's anything else I can help you understand, please let me know.

Liberty · #15 (**permalink**) 10-03-2008, 11:38 AM

Indeed. Biden is once again guilty of being ignorant of history. As I pointed out on the previous page, his analysis of the Constitution with respect to the Vice-Presidency is just plain wrong.

Advantage: Palin.

formerroadie · #16 (**permalink**) 10-03-2008, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liberty

Indeed. Biden is once again guilty of being ignorant of history. As I pointed out on the previous page, his analysis of the Constitution with respect to the Vice-Presidency is just plain wrong.

Advantage: Palin.

huh? I think you were just proven wrong there Liberty. Jovial posted Biden's own words.

Liberty · #17 (**permalink**) 10-03-2008, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiva_TD

Biden is fundamentally correct that the Vice President only becomes involved in the affairs of the Senate in the event of a tie vote.

You aren't countering anything I said in my analysis. Biden claims the Constitution is explicit with respect to the vice presidency as an executive role. It is not. Biden doesn't understand the Constitution.

raytri · #18 (**permalink**) 10-03-2008, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liberty

It was interesting that in trying to make the point that the Vice President works in the Executive Branch, he cites Article 1 of the Constitution, which of course deals with the Legislative Branch.

It it within Article 1 of the Constitution that the vice president is given the single duty to serve as President of the Senate. About that, the Constitution is indeed explicit.

But, I challenge anyone to show me where the Constitution says that "the primary role of the vice president of the United States of America is to support the president of the United States of America, give that president his or her best judgment when sought."

That's Biden's opinion, or summary of how some Vice Presidents have traditionally served in the past, but it's certainly not something "explicit" within the Constitution.

I'd invite Biden to read David McCullough's biography of our first vice president John Adams (or watch the excellent HBO miniseries). Adams' role could hardly be described as an Executive Role. He was almost never involved in policy decisions and rarely asked for advice. He spent the vast majority of his time presiding over the Senate.

During this time, he is famous for the quote:

"My country has in its wisdom contrived for me the most insignificant office that ever the invention of man contrived or his imagination conceived."

Oh, agreed. But the office of the Vice President is actually created in Article II, the Executive Branch. His single and paltry legislative role is spelled out in Article I, but that doesn't necessarily suggest that he's part of the Legislative Branch.

While the role of vice president has evolved over the years, even back then it was viewed mostly as a backup for the president, not a legislative role -- after all, it was awarded to the person who came in second in the presidential election.

Further, the Twelfth Amendment ought to be considered, as it provided for direct election of the Vice President and specified that he is the backup President.

There's a reason the vice president's office is funded through the executive branch, not the legislative branch.

Thus, as a member of the executive branch whose primary job is to be breathing if the president dies or is incapacitated, it's reasonable to say his main duty -- especially nowadays -- is executive, not legislative. And nowadays, as Biden says, his main job is to support the president.

Liberty · #19 (**permalink**) 10-03-2008, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Jovial One

He said Article I DEFINES THE DUTIES of the Vice President, and those DUTIES are within the Executive Branch.

Which is completely wrong. Show us where in Article 1 it states that the vice presidential duties are within the executive branch.

The Jovial One · #20 (**permalink**) 10-03-2008, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liberty

Which is completely wrong. Show us where in Article 1 it states that the vice presidential duties are within the executive branch.

He didn't say Article I says it's in the Executive Branch. He said Article I defines the duties.

Article II identifies the officers within the Executive Branch. The President, the Vice President and all civil officers.

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