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Old 11-04-2004, 08:16 PM
livefree livefree is offline
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Default Liberals, just ignore smug Repug advice.

In the aftermath of the Democratic loss of the election, liberals have been geting a lot of bad "advice" from some very smug right-wingers on what we did wrong and how we need to change to be more like them so we will be "part of the mainstream". Well, no thank you! We actually don't need your condescending BS right now or your braindead advice on what we can do to be more like you. We don’t want to be like you!

Bush may have won by a nice 3% majority but the fact remains that 55.4 million Americans voted against Bush and his record of failure and betrayal and voted for Kerry and the hope for a positive change in direction. Bush may have won but he is still wrong and is still doing great harm to our nation and the world.

Your smug claim that the Democratic Party is fast falling out of the mainstream is belied by the 55.4 million of us who voted and who are just as much part of "the mainstream" in America as the slightly larger number who voted for the Republican Party. These voter balances change and voter's priorities change and as the failures of Bush's policies on the economy, environment, foreign relations and the Iraq war become even more apparent and harder to ignore, the Democrats may be in the majority again sooner than you want to believe.

Liberals are much more in tune with the real core values of America, like equal rights, individual freedoms and government of, by, and for the people of America. We reject the perversion of this principle that holds that our government should be of, by, and for the corporations and super-rich. That seems to be the main "value" held by the corporate welfare queens of the Repub party.

Many of us on the liberal side think having moral values includes such things as not waging an unnecessary war of unjustified aggression or killing 100,000 civilians in the process. We think it includes taking compassionate care of the poorest and the weakest and the oldest among us. We think it means the opposite of the Repub business ethics and values displayed in the Enron collapse, the Halliburton no-bid contracts, and many other corporate ethics scandals. We liberals think moral values definitely must include a concern for the environment and the welfare of our grand-children and great-grand-children unto the twentieth generation. In our terms, Bush and his crew are very immoral people.

The Republicans convinced many evangelicals and Catholics that there were only two important moral issues at stake in this election. Gay marriage and abortion. "Moral values", in Repub terms, seem to begin and end with sex. The real Democratic Party challenge in the next four years is to bring the other dimensions of morality, beyond just sex, into the political consciousness of the sincerely religious people in this country.
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Old 11-04-2004, 08:38 PM
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Default Keep it up...

as it will only ensure future success of Republicans.

The modern conservative movement was birthed in 1964. For most of those 40 years, Democrats controled most State legislatures, most State Governors, both Houses of Congress, controled the appointment of federal judges, and more often than not, the Executive Branch.

Today, that is completely reversed--in total. Democrtas are the minority party in each and every one of the branches of government mentioned. Your only remaining base of power is with the elite media, and they have become a joke.

Just like the dinosaur, Democrats are growing extinct. They have not adopted to change, and cling to the past--vietnam, civil rights activities of the 50's and 60's, Watergate, Nixon, special interest groups, unions, and big government.

Do what conservatives did in 1964. Become a party of principle, and do not compromise on those principles. If your principles are correct, you will succeed. Because conservative principles are correct, reflect the vast majority of beliefs held by Americans (see all the red States), and they are principles on which we will never compromise.

Goldwater lost real big in 1964. Democrats picked up many senate and congressional seats in 1964. But because Republicans held to our principles, were convinced we were correct and never compromised on those core principles, the defeat in 1964 can be viewed today as a total and complete victory.
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Old 11-04-2004, 08:55 PM
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Default .

Quote:
Originally Posted by livefree";p=&quot View Post

The Republicans convinced many evangelicals and Catholics that there were only two important moral issues at stake in this election. Gay marriage and abortion. "Moral values", in Repub terms, seem to begin and end with sex.
The current crop of neo-cons in this administration convinced many Republicans, but not all.

My father is a devout catholic and a life long republican. He saw through Bush's neo-con agenda and still managed to stay true to the Christian and Republican ideals by voting libertarian in this election. He will be leaving soon for a pilgrimage to christianity's most holy sites in europe and the middle-east to pray for our country.

My father never was the type to preach or talk much about his religion/politics when I was growing up.... but by example alone he has taught me what real patriotism and being christ-like is all about.



T
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Old 11-04-2004, 09:06 PM
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Default There are lessons

I just put this in another thread. Looked like it belonged here.

http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/..._id=1000653667
Quote:
a new USA Today/CNN/Gallup Poll found that 42% of those surveyed thought the former Iraqi leader was involved in the attacks on New York City and Washington.

In response to another question, 32% said they thought Saddam had personally planned them.

The same poll in June showed that 56% of all Republicans said they thought Saddam was involved with the 9/11 attacks. In the latest poll that number actually climbs, to 62%.
So 32% of the country thinks Saddam personally planned the 9/11 attacks. 62% of of Republicans think so. This is a poll from the beginning of October. There are several others with the same type of numbers.

So basically no matter how you slice it, large chunks of Americans are really ignorant of facts. In this poll, the majority of Republicans are just plain dead wrong about a pretty basic fact. Why. Who the F knows. I guess that most Americans would rather drink a bud and watch WWF. I obviously don't know. Poll after poll show that the higher the education level, the more you support Kerry. Obviously broad generalizations always have exceptions.

The fact people say it is "morals" that matter is not right either. I don't think it is the philosophical pursuit of "morals", like Emmanuel Kant. It is if you get a redneck and ask him about queers, he is going to say he don't like that kind. If that is morals, then fine. I personally think that it is more about appealing to the average uninformed simpleton.

So while the President claims a mandate. I personally still believe it is more a mandate of the ignorance of Americans. The first lesson to be learned by the democrats is to just shut up. Don't put forth a smart intellectual who will wisely lead the country. Put forth a guy that a redneck would rather have a beer with. Hide he has a brain if you need to.

The 2nd lesson, character smears and attack ads work. So don't try to run a noble campaign on the issues. Tear the other guy down.

3rd lesson, don't say things to complicated. One thing I learned was Leo Strauss was right. The people are sheeple and love to unite against an enemy. If one doesn't exist, create on. So on this election, Democrats should have harped on attacking terrorists more and attacking those who attack our troops in Iraq. Do talk about stuff like healthcare. Sure, have some plans and put them up on a website for the smart people. But generally stay nice and simple.

4th lesson. Hire better marketing and marketing psychologists. My wife is an MBA. She looked at both the Kerry web site and the Bush web site and thought the Bush site was great. Heck it had a whole paper up there about making america safer. She didn't read it, but thought he had a plan. There was lots of slick marketing done. Marketing is not about describing the taste of mountain dew. It is about creating an image of mountain dew drinkers as cool and hip.

But these are not changes in platform.. They are changes in presentation. Because when 32% of the country believe that Saddam personally planned 9/11, then 32% of the country is not going to care enough to look at the issues.

Give credit where credit is due. The Republicans and their minions did a great job of tearing Kerry down. They repeat over and over, "I voted for the bill before I voted against it". Kerry never once retorts back, "Why did you threaten to veto the bill to supply our troops with armor". Everyone knows Kerry is a flip flopper and a traitor. The Democrats never got a consistent message, Bush is big spender, big government, wants to invade your rights, in bed with big business, and makes bad decisions.
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Old 11-05-2004, 03:06 AM
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Default All I have to say is....

Four

More

Years!
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Old 11-05-2004, 03:10 AM
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Default HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hard-Driver";p=&quot View Post
The Democrats never got a consistent message, Bush is big spender, big government, wants to invade your rights, in bed with big business, and makes bad decisions.
59 Million Americans disagree with you!
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Old 11-05-2004, 03:59 AM
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Default Democrats, please don't learn from your mistakes

and we will see a Republican occupying the White House for the rest of my lifetime!
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Old 11-05-2004, 05:40 AM
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Default .

Ah! livefree... have you stopped crying yet?

Anyway, Do you want to know WHY you lost?

I mean, with all the horrible things Bush has done, all the lies he told, all the dead Iraqis and american soldiers in flag draped coffins, all the money he has spent, the bad performance at the first debate.... You guys should have wasted him right? I mean you spent DAYS writing to us about all these things... you shoulda won right?

All the Hollywood elite, telling people everyday how bad Bush was.. all the money thrown at the democrats.... all the Bush-bashing books... Fahrenheit 9/11... All those democratic 527s registering people.... all the outside world HATING Bush and attacking him and his cabinet EVERYDAY...

Do you know why?

Because regardless of our differences... Republicans stick together... the only holdout were the evangelicals... It was NOT "moral issues" that brought them out... it was the HATE, rude names, and dirty tricks by the democrats.. THAT motivated them and they felt a kinship with BUSH... because you liberals have been treating THEM like that for decades....

Motivating Democrats in one direction is like herding cats with a screechy bullhorn... You liberals will NEVER match the turnout you did this year... in 2 years you democrats will have alienated at least a minority percentage of your base... currently you are attacking your OWN... gays/women/young people... trying to find a scapegoat... where as the republicans will more than likely at least come close to their totals for the next few election cycles...

Christians have long memories.... remember my warnings about waking the sleeping dragon... you fools didn't listen and keep right on screaming at the slumbering giant....

Well, you woke them up and now YOU have to pay the tab.... in 2008, the Greens will take 30% of your base... wait and see....
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Old 11-05-2004, 08:31 AM
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Default Not even close to the top

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedminator";p=&quot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by livefree";p=&quot View Post

The Republicans convinced many evangelicals and Catholics that there were only two important moral issues at stake in this election. Gay marriage and abortion. "Moral values", in Repub terms, seem to begin and end with sex.
The current crop of neo-cons in this administration convinced many Republicans, but not all.

My father is a devout catholic and a life long republican. He saw through Bush's neo-con agenda and still managed to stay true to the Christian and Republican ideals by voting libertarian in this election. He will be leaving soon for a pilgrimage to christianity's most holy sites in europe and the middle-east to pray for our country.

My father never was the type to preach or talk much about his religion/politics when I was growing up.... but by example alone he has taught me what real patriotism and being christ-like is all about.



T
Gay marriage and abortion were NOT the main reasons for MY vote FOR Pres. Bush. Not even close to the top of the list.
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Old 11-05-2004, 10:04 AM
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Default 55.4 million disagree with Bush?

Well 59 million disagree with the democrats. My 59 million is bigger than your 55. So keep up the attitude that you don't need to change anything, that it's only that the message needs to be told louder. You will just find that your seats in the senate will further decline. Your seats in the house will further decline. Your gubernatorial seats will further decline. And more time will pass without a dem in the white house. Just like the trend shows since 1994.

Yes, you are so much more in tune with the real core values of America that you have seen your party's power shrink in each and every facet of American life.
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ANWR Exploration Republicans: 91% Supported. Democrats: 86% Opposed.
Coal-to-liquid R's: 90% YES. D's: 78% NO.
Oil Shale Exploration R's: 90% YES. D's: 86% NO.
Outer Continental Shelf Exploration R's: 81% YES. D's: 83% NO.
Increased Refinery Capacity R's: 97% YES. D's: 96% NO

SUMMARY: 91% of House Republicans have historically voted to increase the production of America’s own oil and gas. 86% of House Democrats have historically voted against.
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