Thread: For anti-fur people.

I have two apple trees, a peach tree, a thicket of thorny American Plum bushes. They're covered with immature fruit now. And by the time it ripens, I'll get ... nothing. The raccoons and possums will gladly eat it before it's fully ripe. (No, netting won't work. It's all too big.)

I just laugh. What else can I do? I can't kill them. Live trapping them is easy (I've accidentally done it when trapping feral cats to be spay/neutered), but like others said, it's not cool to move the problem elsewhere. If the breakdown of society happens, I'll start shooting them, otherwise I just cede the crops to them.

I've got one raccoon capable of leaping up on to the narrow windowsill, manipulating the lock on the kitty door, and getting inside for a cat food buffet. I named her Susie. (I assume it's a female because it's a small one, it's not aggressive like the boys can be, and because it's really smart.) The cats just stay out of her way. She usually arrives very late, after I'm in bed, but I've occasionally walked in on her. If you can't kill them, make them your pets.

Dogs? One night, I hear a big dog outside growling a "I'm going to kill you now" growl. Scary thing to be surprised by. (If it doesn't scare you when it growls, it's not really a dog, but that's another topic.) Worried a cat might be the target, I run out. German Shepherd facing raccoon. The raccoon weighed the two threat levels and ... backed up to stand by me. The dog left. The raccoon, a bigger boy, gave me a few token growls to salvage its self-esteem, then wandered the other way. Good to know I'm less of a threat than a dog.

I have found that even wild raccoons will quickly become "friendly" and accept food right from your hand. They are not naturally aggressive, even the large males. As in the movie "Jaws", they are but eating machines and have no other agenda. If it were not for my geese, I wold just make pets of them. But, my Amish neighbors whose life-style and religious beliefs revolve around self-sufficiency, do not have that option. The problem with raccoons exists and it was not so when fur prices were high enough that many people supplemented their meager incomes (Doctors, Lawyers, etc. did not trap, only lower income people did.), by trapping them. The damage their high numbers are causing is indirectly the result of the anti-fur movement people's actions. Someone please save me from the good intentions of fools.

Originally Posted by dahermit

Today, I disposed of the latest dead raccoon from my barn. It defeated two traps set in plastic tubs of water (so my cats will not get trapped), which is very unusual...they usually get caught and I shoot them (illegally). This year, I have killed about a dozen or so, and about eight opossums, all in the Spring of the year when my geese are nesting. Both opossums and raccoons destroy the nests and eat the eggs. 'coons also will eat the young geese. Therefore, If I want goslings, I have to kill many raccoons and possums each spring. Note: in the Spring, raccoon and opossum pelts are worthless as fur; I just throw them in the field or woods.
In past years, I have lost entire hatches of goslings to raccoons and opossums. I have given up completely on chickens because of the high level of predation.

Sounds like you are better off without the geese and other animals. You dont have a good environment to have them.

Originally Posted by dahermit

Years ago, when I was a trapper, the demand for fur was so great that predation on domestic fowl was not a problem. In fact, I remember an incident where I was driving a truck on a highway and passed a large dead raccoon along the way. I thought to myself, I have better pick-up that raccoon on the way back and harvest the pelt. However, when I retured on my route about twenty minuets latter someone had already picked up the raccoon. Such was the demand for fur; I got $45 for a single large pelt in those days. The demand for fur eleminated many such animals from rotting along the roads and kept their numbers to a level where predation on domestic animals was not a problem.
Since the anti-fur movement however, the numbers of raccoons, and opossums has increased many times over, as well as the damage to those who prefer to raise domestic rabbits, geese, ducks, chickens, and other fowl. I have spent a lot of money protecting my geese from predation...you anti-fur people own me! Will that be cash or check?

I dont owe you crap. If its too costly, in lives and money, to have animals, dont have them. Simple as that.

Originally Posted by dahermit

In my efforts to keep those preditors from destroying my geese, I have had to resort to poison, and trapping. The biggest problem is in the spring (when the pelts are worthless). The poison I use is a horrible method of getting rid of the egg and infant geese eaters, albeit one of the most effective methods. It causes such horrible cramps in the animal that they cannot even walk away from the poison dish. I would not want to wish such a death on any living creature. However, you can either raise raccoons and opossums or you can raise domestic fowl...but not both.

SO DONT RAISE BOTH!

Originally Posted by dahermit

When I have made my prediciment with preditors known to anti-fur people on forums, they quickly try to minimize my problem, often stating that, "...you people exagerate your losses in order to justify your prepensity for distruction of innocent animals...", or something of that kind.

Your losses are beside the point.

Originally Posted by dahermit

You anti-fur people have cost me a lot of money due indirectly to your emotional campain that ignores the cause-effect of a diminished fur trade, not to mention the waste of a dozen or so (eighteen one year) would-be prime pelts each year. The raccoons and opossums are thown out to rot to waste.

Your fur trade is unethical. I dont owe you crap and you should stop whining and start getting rid of the animals you clearly cant take care of. If you have to kill so many to keep so few, there is no question about - find something else to do with your time.

Originally Posted by MegadethFan

Sounds like you are better off without the geese and other animals. You dont have a good environment to have them.

You have effected the environment inadvertently by disrupting the control (trapping) on their numbers. You were ignorant of the cause and effect. Your arrogance and assumptions of my life (and others), is noted.

Originally Posted by MegadethFan

I dont owe you crap. If its too costly, in lives and money, to have animals, dont have them. Simple as that.

It is what I do supplement my retirement income. It is how my Amish neighbors survive. We are both just trying to make a living. I am too old and sick to return to the work-force. Your ignorance has effected my life. It is "as simple as that."

Originally Posted by MegadethFan

SO DONT RAISE BOTH!

Raccons do not lay eggs. I cannot sell raccoons to supliment my retirement income as I do with goslings.

Originally Posted by MegadethFan

Your losses are beside the point.

What point? Who's point? Do you mean that my plight and that of other people who have been effected is not your concern? That is obvious.

Originally Posted by MegadethFan

Your fur trade is unethical. I dont owe you crap and you should stop whining and start getting rid of the animals you clearly cant take care of. If you have to kill so many to keep so few, there is no question about - find something else to do with your time.

Raccoons do not lay eggs. I must now buy my eggs from commerical producers. Pull your head from your ..... and reseach the conditions in which eggs are produced in factory farms.

Did you also protest the production of mouse traps, rat poisen, cockroach poisens? Or were those innocent lives somehow different in your doltish view than cute furry little Disney creatures?

Whoops! I see that you are 20 years old and have thousands of posts. In that case, disregard the above. There is no point in responding to the post of a twenty year-old who has already obtained so much wisdom and experiance and is so willing to share it with others at such a tender age.

Originally Posted by dahermit

You have effected the environment inadvertently by disrupting the control (trapping) on their numbers. You were ignorant of the cause and effect. Your arrogance and assumptions of my life (and others), is noted.

1. If the animals in question must be killed to sustain an environment and thus protect the lives of other creatures and the ecosystem etc etc, then you have a basis for killing them in a controlled way
2. You did not make this clear as the source of your activities, rather that it was just your business.
3. If you have animals that are under threat, that is no basis to kill other animals in the process of keeping them unless 1. is in play.

Originally Posted by dahermit

It is what I do supplement my retirement income. It is how my Amish neighbors survive. We are both just trying to make a living.

Make it some other way that is ethical.

Originally Posted by dahermit

I am too old and sick to return to the work-force.

Bull(*)(*)(*)(*). If you can kill animals you can find something else.

Originally Posted by dahermit

Your ignorance has effected my life. It is "as simple as that."

No your inability to find an ethical source of income has effected your life. Find a better means. If it is seriously impossible to do so, I would recommend the government help you out somehow, but ultiamtely it sounds like such assistance is very far away from being needed by you.

Originally Posted by dahermit

Raccons do not lay eggs. I cannot sell raccoons to supliment my retirement income as I do with goslings.

Then you will have to move, so as to mitigate the (presumably unnessecary) killing of animals so as to keep the goslings or find another source of income.

Originally Posted by dahermit

What point? Who's point? Do you mean that my plight and that of other people who have been effected is not your concern? That is obvious.

An ethical point. Your loss of wages does not compare to the loss of life attributed to your source of income.

Originally Posted by dahermit

Raccoons do not lay eggs. I must now buy my eggs from commerical producers. Pull your head from your ..... and reseach the conditions in which eggs are produced in factory farms.

Again find another source of employment. The fur industry is (*)(*)(*)(*)ed. I dont care if you need to go to the others side of the planet to get a job - the fur industry is, unless on the condition of the #1. point made earlier, is entirely unethical.

Originally Posted by dahermit

Did you also protest the production of mouse traps, rat poisen, cockroach poisens?

Again they are necessary in some circumstances.

Originally Posted by dahermit

Or were those innocent lives somehow different in your doltish view than cute furry little Disney creatures?

Yes. If for example you had a hospital and rats got in, it seems perfectly fine to get rid of them.

Originally Posted by dahermit

Whoops! I see that you are 20 years old and have thousands of posts. In that case, disregard the above. There is no point in responding to the post of a twenty year-old who has already obtained so much wisdom and experiance and is so willing to share it with others at such a tender age.

Yeah, thought it might end like this - "run away". LOL Good bye then. I'm happy more more animals need die.

Two more dead 'coons today, one yesterday. I will not respond to "junior", it would be like arguing over bananas with a monkey, they do not have the ability to see beyond their own omnipotents. Ah, to be young and have all the answers. And to be so willing to share them (12,670 posts @ 20 years of age! He is more of a blow-hard than I was at that age!).

Originally Posted by dahermit

There are inherent problems using live traps on 'coons and 'possums. First, their use presumes that they will be released else where. A practice that just shifts the problems with them unto others who as a result will be endeared to you. For example, my Amish neighbors have complained that they cannot raise any sweet corn at all...'coons eat it all (they do have dogs). Secondly, it takes too much, and too frequent, too much gas to move them to another area. Thirdly, unless a person knows the technique of transporting skunks without getting sprayed (how many of you do?), the occasional skunk in the live trap is going to be difficult to deal with and very unpleasant. Forget about live trapping...it costs too much in every way to be utilized. Fences? A waste of time. They climb over them, and in the event of poultry netting (chicken wire), the just tear holes in it with their teeth. Dogs do not work either. The dogs chase them away, they just keep getting chased away and comming back until they get what they want.

I didn't say "don't shoot them" I was just looking into other options.

But if you are just griping because fur doesn't bring in any money I guess you are out of luck.

I would suggest better housing for your animals...you may have to enclose them top and bottom with good fencing...like 2x4 welded wire.

Originally Posted by dahermit

Two more dead 'coons today, one yesterday. I will not respond to "junior", it would be like arguing over bananas with a monkey, they do not have the ability to see beyond their own omnipotents. Ah, to be young and have all the answers. And to be so willing to share them (12,670 posts @ 20 years of age! He is more of a blow-hard than I was at that age!).

I think that response just shows how incapable of discussing this you actually are.

Originally Posted by politicalcenter

I didn't say "don't shoot them" I was just looking into other options.

But if you are just griping because fur doesn't bring in any money I guess you are out of luck.

No, you miss all the points: The fur is wasted; thrown away to rot. It is not saleable unless prime (November). If, there was a fur trade, thier numbers would not have increased to the point where they are a major problem. The trapping was a suplimental income for the poorer people...that income is now gone. I do not trap. My concerns are the increased preditation and agricultual damage resulting from the lack of trapping.

Originally Posted by politicalcenter

I would suggest better housing for your animals...you may have to enclose them top and bottom with good fencing...like 2x4 welded wire.

How big of an area could be enclosed with such wire? What whould that cost? Whould the cost be prohibitive (too much to make raising poulty worth the cost?). The geese are grazers. If they were inclosed in a cage, even a large one, they would eat all the grass inclosed in a short time. They need a large pasture just as sheep, cattle do. Goslings, confined in small areas are subject to and die from disease. Bacterial contamination is a major problem with goslings. Your solution would work for 3-4 chickens in someones back yard (have to be moved frequently), but not for a flock of any size, espeically geese.
"Other ways"?

You have never rasied any poultry, have you? Those that have usually do not have so many suggestions about how it should be done. Those that have not, are more likely to come up with unworkable alternatives.

Originally Posted by dahermit

No, you miss all the points: The fur is wasted; thrown away to rot. It is not saleable unless prime (November). If, there was a fur trade, thier numbers would not have increased to the point where they are a major problem. The trapping was a suplimental income for the poorer people...that income is now gone. I do not trap. My concerns are the increased preditation and agricultual damage resulting from the lack of trapping.

How big of an area could be enclosed with such wire? What whould that cost? Whould the cost be prohibitive (too much to make raising poulty worth the cost?). The geese are grazers. If they were inclosed in a cage, even a large one, they would eat all the grass inclosed in a short time. They need a large pasture just as sheep, cattle do. Goslings, confined in small areas are subject to and die from disease. Bacterial contamination is a major problem with goslings. Your solution would work for 3-4 chickens in someones back yard (have to be moved frequently), but not for a flock of any size, espeically geese.
"Other ways"?

You have never rasied any poultry, have you? Those that have usually do not have so many suggestions about how it should be done. Those that have not, are more likely to come up with unworkable alternatives.

I have over thirty hens, two cows, just butchered one pig and sold the other. And my hens are doing fine except for the fact that the pigs got into the chicken house and ate a bunch of eggs. I lost a few babies but six survived and I got more hens sitting. I do not have predetor problems.

I don't have geese or ducks because I find them too much trouble and I don't have a decent pond for them...all I have are a couple of Koi ponds.

But back on topic...if you are going to have animals you must supply proper housing for them and you don't have to spend a lot of money to do it.

I built my pig pens from old pallets (free from work) and I have my chicken fenced inside a chain link fence. The chain link fence came with the property.

You can also keep animals in (an preditors out) by running some pipe or other stiffener at the bottom of your fence so animals can't push through at the bottom.

You could also run some barbed wire (40.00 for 1350 ft) to keep animas out. You can tighten short runs with a crowbar.

You can also buy a cheap tarp or some scrap wood to keep them dry.

Ever heard of a chicken tractor? It would work for geese also.

Small space and lots of grazing.