Thread: A Challenge to all those Who Rant and Rave Against the Fossil Fuel Industry

Originally Posted by hiimjered

But the 40% of workers and the huge number of unemployed people who pay no federal income taxes, but do buy fuel will not receive any of the offset money. They will see their fuel prices increase, but won't see a penny of the result.

Even in a direct one for one offset, the costs would still rise. For instance, if coal-generated electricity costs $1 per KWH and Solar costs $3 per KWH, a $1 tax on coal that is given as an offset to pay for solar would make solar competitive, but it would still double the cost of electricity for the consumer. (Yes my numbers are fictional, but the principle works regardless of the numbers.)

Simple reasoning also shows that this has to increase the cost to the consumer. This tax is supposed to increase the cost of fossil fuels to push consumers to other methods of generating power. If the tax is money paid is given back to the consumer, then there is no incentive to change. The tax has to increase costs to consumers in order to bring about change.

First, although I specified income tax to offset the carbon tax, that was illustrative only; other taxes could also be offset.

Second, although the cost of energy would rise, the rise would be much more modest than you seem to believe. I posted a graph upthread showing that non-fossil alternatives are already comparable to coal on price. What's needed is an incentive to switch, and the tax provides that.

Third, you're only looking at half of the cost equation. The cost of doing nothing on climate change is roughly five times higher than the cost of mitigation (Stern 2006), and the cost of doing nothing falls disproportionately on the poor. So if you were really concerned for the poor (are you?) then you'd be clamoring for a system like this one.

Fourth, not only is your position uneconomic, it's immoral. Why should innocent third parties continue to bear the external costs of fossil carbon use? Taxing fossil carbon is one way to recover those costs, as well as being a good way to reduce them.

Originally Posted by Elmer Fudd

AGW is not science, that has been proven, you are still stuck in 1999.

Oh right. All that stuff about CO2 absorbing IR radiation? Unproven quantum mechanics, another librul plot. And all that stuff about Earth emitting IR because of its temperature? Just unproven Stefan-Boltzmann "Laws" that were probably passed by librul Congress. And all that stuff about CO2 lines broadening because of air pressure? Just because it was discovered by the US Air Force in order to build heat-seeking missiles and win the Cold War, that doesn't make it true. The USAF probably had lots of commies back then.

You're the one who's stuck, FUD. In 1899.

Originally Posted by Elmer Fudd

As I stated, it is not a Republican plan simply because a Republican wrote about it. Try not to show ignorance. By your logic the fact that Bin Laden believed in AGW makes AGW a terrorist threat.....

Since this plan was originated by Republicans, it's perfectly fair to call it a Republican plan. Kinda like Obamacare in that sense: it was Mitt Romney's idea.

Originally Posted by Elmer Fudd

You're all for getting off fossil fuels, and all against actually doing anything to achieve that goal.

Laddie.....1)I lead my company in its membership to the ill-fated Chicago Climate exchange and sold over 5 million $ in "Carbon Credits" to eco-nuts like you. (We REALLY appreciate it too BTW)
2) we run the largest coal bed methane capture system in the USA...perhaps the world, which eliminates YOUR GHG fears AND proves relatively clean energy
3) I have made presentations on AGW at gov't meetings, private societies, and Micheal Mann's own Penn State University
4) I have a 1.5 million $ plan on my desk at this very moment to covert a fleet of 47 pickup truck to CNG to reduce gasoline consumption

I stand corrected, and thanks for doing those small things you are. Sadly, though, you're against doing the big things that would make a big difference.

Originally Posted by Elmer Fudd

what are you doing with your power still on????????

The same thing you are, FUD, living my life. The difference is, I'm working to make my power (and yours) fossil free, and you're working against that.

Originally Posted by Poor Debater

Oh right. All that stuff about CO2 absorbing IR radiation? Unproven quantum mechanics, another librul plot. And all that stuff about Earth emitting IR because of its temperature? Just unproven Stefan-Boltzmann "Laws" that were probably passed by librul Congress. And all that stuff about CO2 lines broadening because of air pressure? Just because it was discovered by the US Air Force in order to build heat-seeking missiles and win the Cold War, that doesn't make it true. The USAF probably had lots of commies back then.

You're the one who's stuck, FUD. In 1899.


Since this plan was originated by Republicans, it's perfectly fair to call it a Republican plan. Kinda like Obamacare in that sense: it was Mitt Romney's idea.



I stand corrected, and thanks for doing those small things you are. Sadly, though, you're against doing the big things that would make a big difference.



The same thing you are, FUD, living my life. The difference is, I'm working to make my power (and yours) fossil free, and you're working against that.

I'm working to make my power (and yours) fossil free

Really, can you be specific?......Hint: posting unworkable dreams on a forum does not count as "working"....

Originally Posted by Elmer Fudd

I'm working to make my power (and yours) fossil free

Really, can you be specific?......Hint: posting unworkable dreams on a forum does not count as "working"....

Hint: completely workable plans do count.

Originally Posted by Poor Debater

Hint: completely workable plans do count.

LOL....you have the typical liberal definition of "Work"....

Originally Posted by Elmer Fudd

LOL....you have the typical liberal definition of "Work"....

I take it you mean his display of hard work and common sense, two of the defining points of liberalism.

Now, not being a raging bigot, I won't blame conservatism for your faulty logic. That's not a problem with conservatism, it's a problem with you. Look at you here, actually declaring that people have to live in caves in order to accept a century of established science. That's a stupid position, and anyone who holds it should be told to get back to the kiddie table and stop bothering the grownups.

Here, let me make it a bit clearer for you.

"If you're not personally serving in the armed forces for life, you can't say anything in favor of the military, otherwise you're a hypocrite!"

That's a dumb argument. And you're making the same kind of argument with another topic, declaring that if you're not 110% devoted to a cause, you're a hypocrite to support it. It kind of boggles the mind that some people actually think an argument that dumb is an irrefutable putdown of the opposition.

Originally Posted by Elmer Fudd

Australia gets over 90% of its power from fossil fuels (FF). America about 69% Germany 54% (but that is going way up due to closing Nukes).

Bowerbird just finished one of her usual rant-and-raves about the FF industry profits and how they pollute to their hearts content.

The fact is BB,and the rest of you eco-folks, the fossil fuel industry does not pollute AT ALL....you do every time you turn on your computer to post another line of illogic.

So until you all pull the power from your home or apartment for 90% of every 24 hours (or whichever percentage is applicable) you are a hypocrite of the first order

Let me help the technically challenged here:

To figure out how long you may use electricity and still be true to your beliefs, take the applicable percentage, subtract it from 100% and multiple the result (as a decimal) by 24 to get your allowed hours of power. For example BB is allowed: 100% - 90% = 10% .10X24 - 2.4 hours of power per day. Easy huh??

Now you may wonder how to cut your power from your residence. In the US the breaker box is commonly outside on the side of your home or apt. It is usually medium grey. Simply open it and flip all the switches for the required time period. Caution do not use any metal object like a screwdriver to do this.


Now I expect that some of the environuts will balk at this suggestion of how THEY can actually save the planet with these comebacks:

1) the most common will be some completely disconnected nonsense because they do not understand the connection between their wall socket and the power plant
2) some will say since I work for the fossil fuel industry they are justified in ignoring all the facts simply because I presented them and I must be biased (this will be the most common)
3) a few may even understand most of his and be the ones who, with all good intentions, signed up for "green energy" from their provider. Well the only reason you are able to pay your bill is that the wind/solar energy is backed up 90% by FF. Without FF your bill would be unbelievable (in fact you would have no bill since there would not be enough electricity for residential use at all-the gov't would take it)


So one way or another guys, you all have very limited hours each day to do everything (including post here) IF you wish to actually practice what you preach....so type FAST......

Unsubstantiated hyperbole and bull(*)(*)(*)(*)

Get back to me when you have something even remotely resembling a fact

I take the power that is delivered to me. I can cut back but I can't cut out. The solution will ultimately be collective which takes us into politics. I support a politics that makes us less dependent on fossil fuels but in the mean time I will be using fossil fuel sourced power. I guess that makes me a hypocrite.

Originally Posted by Dingo

I take the power that is delivered to me. I can cut back but I can't cut out. The solution will ultimately be collective which takes us into politics. I support a politics that makes us less dependent on fossil fuels but in the mean time I will be using fossil fuel sourced power. I guess that makes me a hypocrite.

NO it does not. It makes you a realist. I too know we have to move away from fossil fuel. The hypocrites are the ones who what all FF stopped TODAY, regardless of the impact on economies, yet continue to use power all day long.

Originally Posted by Bowerbird

Unsubstantiated hyperbole and bull(*)(*)(*)(*)

Get back to me when you have something even remotely resembling a fact

Australia's economy is VERY dependent on the income from exported COAL. The high standard of living that people enjoy is due to their deliberate export of planet-wide pollution and environmental destruction.

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