The morality of the consumers. In a Hindu country, the market would stop the beef trade. In a Muslim country, the pork trade. There is no need for the governments to ban those.


The same applies to any government. All governments operate (at some level) with the threat of force.

SOMEONE doesn't understand the discussion. Who mentioned local, national and international markets?

Perdidochas proposed that it "Should be for the market to decide." whether plastic bags are used or not.

I contended that that statement was ridiculous since the market is completely useless when it comes to matters of externalities such as environmental quality.

Unless you are one of those particularly ignorant Americans who cannot see past his own borders - questions of local, national and international markets are fairly meaningless when we are discussing environmental matters.

(....and to bring this discussion back to plastic bags)

Even things as seemingly mundane as shopping bags


Much of the concern regarding plastic bag litter revolves around the impacts on marine life. Much anecdotal evidence has been gathered around the world on the incidence of at least 143 species being affected, injured and killed by plastic bags – either by ingestion or entanglement.
It is believed that turtles, and other species such as whales, mistake plastic bags in the water for jelly fish or other food. The bags can choke the animal or restrict food absorption in the body leading to injury or death. Mammals and other species also become entangled in bags leading to injury, loss of limbs, infection and possible death. A figure of 100 000 marine animals killed annually has been widely quoted by environmental groups; this figure was from a study in Newfoundland which estimated the number of animals
entrapped by plastic debris in that area over a four-year period from 1981-1984. Actual numbers of animals injured or killed annually by plastic bag litter is obviously nearly impossible to determine.
http://www.environment.gov.au/settle...s/analysis.pdf

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Have you ever stood toe to toe with someone that was intent on kicking your arse? C-D-P

I see. So this "moral" restriction you are placing on your "free" market can change from place to place - from culture to culture. It is sounding less and less like a "free" market every time!

Will this "moral" market ban plastic bags in Bangladesh?
Bangladesh suffers extensive problems with littering of plastic bags and film. Serious flooding resulting in major loss of life has been linked to plastic bags blocking drains. These problems were a combined result of lack of public infrastructure and a reliance on scavenging of valuable materials, lack of consumer responsibility and profound environmental and social consequences.
http://www.environment.gov.au/settle...s/analysis.pdf

Why hasn't the Bangladeshi market already adjusted for these problems? What cost do you think Bangladeshis' place on "serious flooding resulting in major loss of life"?

At what stage do you think that your "free*" US market (NB: *'free', subject to the constraints of arbitrary morals) would move to eliminate plastic bags. After there had been "serious flooding resulting in major loss of life"? Or would the market consider US lives more valuable than Bangladeshi ones?

Will this "moral" market ban plastic bags in India?
Like Bangladesh, littering of a broad range of products is a major problem in India. There is very little waste and recycling infrastructure in many areas, and a heavy reliance on low-technology recovery and sorting. The low value of lightweight plastic shopping bags means that many bags are not recovered through scavenging activity, and therefore remain in the environment and find their way into rivers and drains in large numbers.

It would appear that since "The low value of lightweight plastic shopping bags means that many bags are not recovered through scavenging activity, and therefore remain in the environment and find their way into rivers and drains in large numbers." - the market in India is having the exact opposite effect.
http://www.environment.gov.au/settle...s/analysis.pdf

__________________
Have you ever stood toe to toe with someone that was intent on kicking your arse? C-D-P

In Bangladesh, it seems that the market is going away from bags:

Yes it does, you are correct.

But read my quote again:
Serious flooding resulting in major loss of life has been linked to plastic bags blocking drains. These problems were a combined result of lack of public infrastructure and a reliance on scavenging of valuable materials, lack of consumer responsibility and profound environmental and social consequences.

and go back to the source:
In March 2002, a ban on the manufacture and use of plastic bags was introduced. This was the government’s third attempt to introduce a ban.


So, after serious flooding and loss of life and a subsequent banning of plastic bags by the government (after 2 attempts) in Dacca only - only then do we get "strong pressure from industry to extend the ban to other large cities in Bangladesh".

Is this what you call the market driving environmental improvement? A bit late isn't it? I don't deny that the market may help push environmental initiatives along once they have been initiated. But the market cannot relied on to take action of it's own accord until it is way too late.

__________________
Have you ever stood toe to toe with someone that was intent on kicking your arse? C-D-P