Re-read my posts again. Human rights watch have no reason to lie. These are facts that I am posting. But all you are doing is bringing up excuses. You said earlier that you didn't support Milosevic, yet you come up with excuses to justicy the attrocities committed in Kosova.


1. What difference does it make if the war crimes were committed on the ground or on the moon? They are crimes nonetheless.

2. Where do you think the commanders got their orders from?! They got their orders from Belgrade.

3. The serbs authorities knew about this, but nothing was done to prevent it.

4. The reason for that is cause they didn't care ( just like you said). After all it got their "job# done.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/kosovo/undword-03.htm

5. Serbia had no intention to stop it as rape "furthered the goal of forcing ethnic Albanians from Kosovo.




The war in Bosnia was not balck and white, attrocities were committed against the Bosnian serbs as well. The fact still remains, 90 % of the crimes committed in Bosnia, were committed by the serbs ( a report by C.I.A ).

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...pagewanted=all





When a country keeps oppressing a people, denying their rights as humans, and later implement a campaign to ethnic cleans them- Do you expect these people to feel love for that country?! This is what Serbia did.


The 2500 people that were missing after the war, that's Albanians, Serbs and Roma put together. Attrocities were committed by Albanians as well, as wars are more or less never black and white. But comparing individual crimes with state organized terror is simply plain ridicilious.


Really? So out of the "love" Serbia felt for the Albanian Kosovars, it felt the "need" to remove their rights as Humans and to launch an ethnic cleansing campaign?! Only a blind man would close his eyes.

If Serbia feels that it did not do anything wrong, why did it feel the need to remove dead bodies of Albanians and burry them i Serbia? Or dump trucks filled with dead bodies in rivers in Serbia

This was done to remove the eveidence.

"Some 800 bodies were exhumed from mass graves at a police training ground near Belgrade in 2001. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4353573.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1414735.stm
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/e...ound_in_Serbia
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1368627.stm
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...679C8B63&fta=y
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/kosovo/undword-03.htm

Of course crime is a crime. But there is much deference in war in kosovo and in Bosnia.
First the Bosnia. The war in Bosnia was a criminal war, that was prolonged as much as possible. There was weapons, oil, cigarettes, drugs...smuggling. The crimes were committed all tree sides. And to say that there was 90% of war crime committed by Serbs is irresponsible. Your sores the CIA is wary much known by its "honesty “and objectivity. Lets me remind you that there were concentration camps on all tree sides. And that the women were raped in Serbian controlled part of sarajevo, but also in Muslim part of sarajevo. Yugoslavian authority could not be held responsible because what happened on the ground in Bosnia. Yugoslavian officials had "unofficial" control of the war in Bosnia ,and so they could not give orders.
And how do you expect order looks like? It looks something like this:HQ Republic Serbian Army. To general ----- -------,commander of 3 infantry brigade, by the order of hq of Serbian army all soldier of the 3 brigade have to committe ratings over Muslim women in region---------...
But there are no evidence of such orders.

In kosovo.The majority of war crimes in Kosovo was committed by paramilitary. And local reserve of police. And you are Wright the Belgrade now about it and did nothing. There was organized killing in kosovo, there are 800(i thought 600) civilians in mass graves and trucks in river in serbia. But there are no more big mass garves.But the blame of that goes to minister of police and national security. And those raping and killings were committed during the bombing and few days before. So there was no ethical cleanings as you say.There was no evidence of orders given to the troops.

You said:When a country keeps oppressing a people, denying their rights as humans, and later implement a campaign to ethnic cleans them- Do you expect these people to feel love for that country?! This is what Serbia did.

What rights were Albanians denied? Did you have rights to vote? Yes.Did you have wrights to educate on your own language? Yes.Did you have University in kosovo? Yes. Were there Albanian profesors? Yes.Did you have autonomy in kosovo?Yes.DID YOU HAVE PRESEDENT OF YUGOSLAVIA?YES!!!The albanian was presedent of Yugoslavia!!!

Why did albanians killed serbs during the 1941-1944???

It is no accident that the Serb forces ( regular soldiers & paramilitary marauders ) were able to cleanse hundreds of thousands out of Kosova in matter of days. This was planned, when the Serbs went in Kosova they knew exactly what their orders were.

I don't see how you can come up with excuses to justify what Milosevic did. Whether you admit it or not, this was organized. There's no way around it.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/kosovo/undword-03.htm





The war in ww2 wasn't black and white, serbia did their fair share as well.



WRONG!! When Milosevic came to power in 1989 he revoked Kosova's and Vojvodina's autonomy. If that wasn't enough, he took control of the media in Kosova spearding ani-Albanian propaganda, closed the Albanians schools, thousands of Albanians were forced to leave their jobs.


http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/kosovo/undword-01.htm

You should read what i have posted on this tread. First the YU-army could not move during the bombing, because the NATO air-rides, the army was pined down. And it was busy fighting the Albanians in the serbia-albanian border. The fighting was in kosare.So the actual killings, steeling and in some number the expelling of Albanians, were done by the paramilitary. And the Albanians fled because the bombing, the kla and the paramilitary. Why was the refuges column bombed by NATO? They were returning to kosovo. Your clams have no logics back up. Because there could have to bee large movement of the army during the bombing. And like i said that could not be possible, because NATO air supremacy. Because the total number of destroyed tanks is 14 witch means that the army kept the technique and soldiers in hiding.
There are no evidence(documents)of such things. If what you are saying then there would have to be some documents of orders. Because the total number of Yugoslav 3-army in kosovo was 180,000 soldiers. Do you think that you can command that number of soldiers without written orders?
To be honest Milosevic probably intended to get reed of Albanians during the war. But that does not mean that there was planed ethical cleaning.



You said:WRONG!! When Milosevic came to power in 1989 he revoked Kosova's and Vojvodina's autonomy. If that wasn't enough, he took control of the media in Kosova spearding ani-Albanian propaganda, closed the Albanians schools, thousands of Albanians were forced to leave their jobs.

Wary amusing.
What Milosevic did was that he brought amendments to the Serbian constitution. Those amendments did not take away kosovo and vojovodina autonomies. It has centralized Serbia’s power over low enforcement and judiciary system in kosovo and vojvodina.
When you mentioned it that way.Let me ask you why did you protest in 1983?
And you did not answer my questions. Did you have wrights to vote? Did you have rights to educate on your own language? Did you have university with Albanian professors? Did you have parliament? Did you have Albanian press? What did you want to merge with Albania?

Let me ask you. Did you live beater in kosovo then albanians in albania?I think that the kosovo albanians lived and steal do, beater then albanians in albania.

My so called "claims" are based on facts, reports and investigations, which I've even posted links to. Something YOU haven't done.

You can only maintain your position my misrepresenting the facts. Ethnic cleansing was under way in Kosova ten months before the bombing began. The Departure of the Albanians was a systematic deportation , using military units. The soldiers whom were sent to Kosova knew exactly what their aim was.


Same techniques that were used in Croatia and in Bosnia were used in Kosova;


1. Concentration; Surround the area to be cleansed and after warning the resident Serbs- urging them to leave or at least mark their houses with flags- intimidate the target population with artillery fire and arbitrary executions and bring them out into the streets

2. Decapitation; Execute political leaders and those capable of taking their places- lawyers, judges, public officials , writers, professors.

3. Separation; Divide women, children and older men from men of "fighting age" - 16 years to 60 years old.

4. Evacuation; Transport women, children and old men to the border, expelling them into a neighboring territory or country.

5. Liquidation; Execute "fighting age " men, dispose of bodies.


Now are you going to tell me that this was "random" or that they had no clue of what they were doing?

Seriously, wake up and smell the coffee. Only a blind man would close his eyes.







Milosevic DID revoke Kosova's and Vojvodina's autonomy in 1989.

Yes I answered all you questions. If you had read through what I wrote and the link I posted you'd notice. But I'll write it again.


When the autonomy was revoked, so were the rights which the Albanians had enjoyed since 1974.

1. Milosevic took control of the Media and TV in Kosova ( as well as the ones in Serbia ). The Albanian news papers, and the Albanians news on TV were no longer allowed.
2. Albanians were forced to leave their jobs.
3. The Albanian Language was no longer allowed to be taught in schools.

I do not sit here and make up fairy tales/stories.

Read
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/kosovo/undword-01.htm




You "think" that's the key word.

If the life was better in Kosova ? Well, depends how and when.

During Tito's Yugoslavia, at least from 1974- 1980, the Albanian Kosovars had it better than those in Albania. But after Tito's death things started to get worse as the time went by.

When Milosevic came to power, that's when things really started to hit rock bottom for the Albanians in Kosova. Ever since the autonomy and the rights were revoked, the Kosovar Albanians have tried to get them back by using democratic measures, As Ibrahim Rugova was against the usage of violence to get our rights back.


Ibrahim Rugova was not called the Albanian/ Balkan Ghandi for nothing. May he rest in peace.

Do you have any proof of that(pictures, videos...)
And tell me when did that happen in kosovo? Also tell me the number of civilian dead in kosovo from 1996-99.And if as you say the ethnical cleaning began 10 months before bombing, how many Albanians were expelled from kosovo in ten months? If what you are saying is trough than there were 5 million Albanians in kosovo. Let me remind you that almost whole Serbian population was expelled from Croatia in mater of days!!!And why did the war start in 1996 and not when so called ethnical cleaning in 1998?

The Croatian president Franjo Tudjman said in 1990 before the actual war begin that the number of Serbs in Croatia will be lest then 3%.And if you look the current number of serbs in croatia you will see that there are les then 3% on serbs.Only to remind you that the number of serbs expelled from croatia(krajna only) is around 150,000.Also if you read the book of Aliaja Izentbegovic you would understand the war in bosnia.And if you look were serbians lived before in bosnia and were do they live now,you will get the picture.


Second you always attack soldiers. And say they new what they have to do. But i told you that you need to have direct command in order to use the army.The paramilitary can bee commanded by unoficial ways. Because there smaller numbers and profiles of the people in the units.

Like i said Milosevic did not revoke autonomies in kosovo and vojvodina.But made amendment to the constitution from 1974.There still was parliament in kosovo.

When you say things like this: When Milosevic came to power, that's when things really started to hit rock bottom for the Albanians in Kosova. Ever since the autonomy and the rights were revoked, the Kosovar Albanians have tried to get them back by using democratic measures, As Ibrahim Rugova was against the usage of violence to get our rights back.

I can ask you.Why did you protest in 1983????

And dont lie that you did not have rights to educate on Albanian language, that you did not have news paper on albanian,news on rts on Albanian...
Name me one country in the world that gives such rights to national minority.


And yes i think that the "KEY word "of all words is do you did live bather in kosovo then in albania.The poorest country in europa is albania.And during the 1945-1990 the life in kosovo was 100x times beater then in albania.I want to know what did you whant two countries ? Or to merge with albania.
You should merge with albania and live like they do.

Tell me of the current kosovo leaders and the former KLA leader who is from kosovo(born in kosovo and lived there).

NOt "in" 10 months, BUT 10 months before NATO started the bombing. NATO started the bombing only as late as in March '99, the war had already broken out in '98. Before that it was neither war or peace in Kosova. During that period 350,000 Albanians were forced to leave.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/kosovo/undword-01.htm



Yes, The soldiers knew exactly what their orders were when they stepped in Kosova. What do you think they were doing, plant flowers?

Wake up and smell the coffee!!


Do you call these techniques "random"?



1. Concentration; Surround the area to be cleansed and after warning the resident Serbs- urging them to leave or at least mark their houses with flags- intimidate the target population with artillery fire and arbitrary executions and bring them out into the streets

2. Decapitation; Execute political leaders and those capable of taking their places- lawyers, judges, public officials , writers, professors.

3. Separation; Divide women, children and older men from men of "fighting age" - 16 years to 60 years old.

4. Evacuation; Transport women, children and old men to the border, expelling them into a neighboring territory or country.

5. Liquidation; Execute "fighting age " men, dispose of bodies.




http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/kosovo/undword-02.htm



" Est. number of Kosovar Albanians driven from their homes by Serb security forces prior to October 1998 cease-fire: 250,000

United Nations (UNHCR) estimate of maximum number of refugees from a potential conflict in Kosovo, prior to war: 100,000 [5]

Maximum UNHCR refugee relief capacity in Albania, three days after bombing began: 10,000 [6]

Est. Number of Kosovar Albanians expelled from Kosovo by Serbs, March to June 1999: 863,000 [7]


Est. Number of Kosovar Albanians internally displaced within Kosovo, as of mid-May 1999: 590,000 [8]

Percentage of Kosovar Albanian population displaced during war: at least 90%

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...etc/facts.html


Now how were the Serbs able to expel 90% of the Albanian population out of Kosova in matter of weeks? It doesn't take a genius to figure that one out.




The flight of the ethnic Albanian population from Kosovo was executed with a degree of coordination and control that render it impossible to reach any conclusion other than systematic forced expulsion. At least four factors are key in determining that a policy of "ethnic cleansing" was carried out in Kosovo: First is the timing of the refugees' arrival-refugees arrived in Macedonia and Albania from the same areas on the same dates, and at various times (notably during negotiations) the flow of refugees stopped or was switched from one border to another. Second is the means of departure: refugees were expelled into Macedonia by train, which allowed the efficient removal of thousands of persons a day. Others, including many of those sent to Albania who did not have their own transportation, were taken by trucks and buses organized by the Serbian police. Collection points were used to facilitate expulsion. Third is the use of threats and violence to terrorize the population into departing, a central element of "ethnic cleansing," observed frequently during the wars in Bosnia and Croatia. Fourth is the practice of "identity cleansing": refugees expelled toward Albania were frequently stripped of their identity documents and forced to remove the license plates from their cars and tractors before being permitted to cross the border.


Whatever the explanation, the practice of "identity cleansing" was clearly not a random initiative by Serbian officials on the border. After the war, piles of license plates and burned documents were discovered by the border crossings into Albania and elsewhere in Kosovo.


http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/kosovo/undword-03.htm



The expulsion of the ethnic Albanians was going on before NATO decided to bomb. That's why Nato intervened, to stop the ethnic cleansing, mass murder and rapes. They already made a mistake during the Bosnian war, and same mistake was not going to be made again in Kosova.

By observing both the timing and pattern of refugee arrivals, researchers were able to draw a conclusion.


The forces of the FRY and Serbia have, in a systematic manner, forcibly expelled and internally displaced hundreds of thousands of Kosovo Albanians from their homes across the entire province of Kosovo. To facilitate these expulsions and displacements, the forces of the FRY and Serbia have intentionally created an atmosphere of fear and oppression through the use of force, threats of force, and acts of violence.

The widespread confiscation of identity documents and car license plates by Serbian police and border guards from departing Kosovar Albanian refugees also points to the systematic nature of the expulsions. Hundreds of refugees arriving in Albania spoke of being forced to hand over ID cards, passports, and birth certificates, which were often torn up in front of them, before they were permitted to cross the border. Those who crossed the border by car were given screwdrivers and ordered to remove the license plates from their vehicles. By contrast, refugees who were expelled to Macedonia generally were permitted to retain their documents, even after having them inspected by Serbian police officers. (As noted in the section discussing explanations for the "ethnic cleansing," the difference in approach may reflect an expectation that those sent to Albania could be more easily characterized as Albanians from Albania and blocked from returning, whereas Macedonia was unlikely to tolerate the permanent residence of large numbers of Albanians from Kosovo.)



Each one of these four factors (the timing of arrivals, the means of departure, the use of terror and the practice of "identity cleansing") strongly suggest that the flight of some 860,000 Albanians from Kosovo in twelve weeks adds up to systematic forced expulsion. Taken together, the evidence is overwhelming.



http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/kosovo/undword-03.htm

Yes, he did revoke Kosovas and Vojvodina's autonomy in 1989. If you did not know, before that both Kosova and Vojvodina were equal members of the Yugoslav Federation with the right to veto. This was something Milosevic did not like, so by revoking the autonomies, it allowed him to control the voting process.

>>>>In 1989, when the Serbian government revoked Kosovo's status as an autonomous province within the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia


>>> The new Serbian constitution was important because, by formally revoking the autonomy of Kosovo and Vojvodina, Serbia assumed two additional seats in the eight-member Yugoslav presidency. In coalition with it
partner Montenegro, the "Serbian Block" controlled half of the federal body.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/kosovo/undword-01.htm


Same as the year in '81- and the years to follow, the conditions in Kosova started to change after Tito's death.



I have no reason to lie. I even backed it up. If you had read through what I've been posting and the links, I wouldn't have to repeat myself.


Yes, the Albanian language were not allowed in schools, hence schools being closed. Only the Serbian language was allowed. Yes yet again, the media was in Belgrade's hands. The Albanian Radio and television operations were shut down by the Serbian government. Instead they were used to promote anti-Albanian racism in Kosova.


Read

Hundreds of thousands of ethnic Albanians were fired from government institutions and state-run enterprises under a series of discriminatory laws. Already in August 1990, the Serbian parliament had abolished the independence of the Kosovo educational system and instituted a new curriculum to be administered centrally from Belgrade.

Albanian teachers were forced to sign a loyalty oath; those who refused were dismissed. Throughout 1990, the government closed most of the Albanian-language schools and, in January 1991, it stopped paying most Albanian high school teachers. By October 1991, all Albanian teachers had been fired; only fifteen Albanian professors remained at the university in Pristina, and they all taught in Serbian.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/kosovo/undword-01.htm


Again, I do not sit here and make up stories. I don't know what Serbia has been spoon-feeding you, but these are facts.








The poorest country in Europe is the Republic of Kosova, just like it was during the Yugoslav Federation. Although, the tide is changing for the better, thanks to the status.

The times were better in Kosova during 1945 -1990? - Correction; The only time it was better to live in Kosova than in Albania, was from 1974-1980. As Kosova was an equal member of the Yugoslav Federation.


It's not a matter of having " two countries" or "merge with Albania", it's a matter of peace, equality, democracy, self-determination, and no more oppression from Belgrade.

If Milosevic had been half the man Ibrahim Rugova was, Serbia wouldn't be where it is today. But instead the majority of the Serbs chose to back his chauvinistic regime. Now Serbia and it's people are facing the consequences.



The KLA consisted of Albanians around the world, not just Albanian Kosovars. Women, men, Christians, Muslims, Orthodox- all fought together. The army itself wasn't that big though, 18 000- 20 000.

As far as the Kosovar leaders goes, both Thaci and Haradinaj are born and raised in Kosova.

And all your evidence comes from www.hrw.org from 2001!!

Kosovo remained autonomic province in serbia.And yes he put amendments because political reasons. I agree on that. He did want to centralize(himself) power.
But all of this was after 1981.And yet Albanians protested before that.
Do you have any proofs that hundreds and towsends Albanians were fired from work and that Albanian was banned from schools. And if it was(but it didn’t)why did you protest in the 1981 you had all "political rights"?

Let me ask you one question did you vote? Did any Albanian vote after 1989?
Do you know that Albanians could remove Milosevic from power? Did you know that if you only "ONE" went to the elections and participated, his days of power would be over? If your leader organized a party and participated in elections, with your 1 million votes(and maybe more)you could aide serbian opposition and form government together. During the 90-es opposition was always on the edge of defeating Milosevic. Face it you could have put him down!!Only if you ever voted.
But "NO" you did not want to participate in any Serbian institution, or to have any thing with Serbia. You only wanted Independence!!!
So you should stop the crap.You were played just like Serbians were.
Lets see what will you say about that.

Don’t talk about consequences because wary little people know the truth. So you don’t know what tomorrow brings. Did you know that Milosevic was in America for 10 years? And do you know that during the 1995-1998 the Americans called him "factor of stability “and peace keeper?

If life in Kosovo was worse than in Albania,and you can honestly say that.Then I can only wish you a bather life in the future.