Let's get our facts straight here. I completely agree with you that Christians have killed millions of people in the past. This is very clear, it's history, and it is very regretable. But let it be known that it did happen in the past, today we do not have the kind of atrocities being commited by Christians as they happened in the past. If we did, I would be completely against them.

But you still have not admitted that Muslims today are in fact committing HORRIBLE crimes against humanity. It is happening everyday. It happens in Israel, Sudan, Indonesia, Nigeria.... and countless other places. It should be condemned by Islam leaders, and in some cases it is, but it is not being denounced by enough people. If it were, it would stop. I don't understand why some liberals will not condemn such acts, instead they focus on how it is racist to say that all Muslims are like this. NO ONE IS MAKING THAT CLAIM. Just like in the middle ages not all Christians were killing Jews and other Christians, today not all Muslims are killing others. But there is an element inside Islam that is very violent, and they promote absolutely terrible things. Why not denounce such acts?

Alllll righty. I certainly admit that there are Muslims committing atrocities. I condemn them. But dont tell me that someone listing some atrocities and saying "Muslims did these things..." isn't abjectly racist. There is not violent element to Islam inherently. Islam, like many things, is just a control method. There is a violent element in the people brainwashing and controlling masses in the Middle East, not the religion itself. The same is true for Christianity.

__________________
"Violence isn't always evil. What's evil is the infatuation with violence."
Jim Morrison

Could you please explain why you use the word racism? I find your argument totally either uneducated or deliberately deceptive. First of all Islam is not a race. Muslims are not a race. To use the tactic of a "racial card" is nothing more than to try to intimidate others from critisizing Islam. We see this all the time on the internet as cyber jihad. But it really falls through the cracks for those intelligent eyes that read such garbage. Because again....Islam is an ideology not a race. Therefore your accusations fall on their face. Also when you bring up the past to justify the actions of muslims today is ridiculous and pure deception.

When anyone tries to use Christianity as a reason to kill innocent people, and believe me there are examples from mothers killing their children with mental illness that make claims to rebels funded by the govt called LDRA in Sudan trying this deception but guess what: they are wrong too. There is no Christian church teaching people they will get a reward in the afterlife for killing the nonbelievers nor is there any fatwa by Christian churches against nations in the name of their God to smite the heads of the unbelievers in a holy war. But for example, the LDRA, the reality is intelligent people aknowledge it for what it is and the USA has this group on their terrorist list. That is what we must do...call a terrorist a terrorist. If Islam is having a problem with the terrorist today being mainly muslims then I suggest Islam take some action and clean up their own back yard on this issue and stop making up excuses to justify the reality of murder and kidnapping of innocent people.

History is a good thing to know, and Islam falls short there too since it's past is about conquest with a sword, but do learn from the past yes, but live in today and be honest with the facts without "racial" blackmail to intimidate others and don't excuse one evil of today by pointing to another evil from the past to cover up or justify what muslims are doing today.



Again you are trying to intimidate others from critisizing Islam. If you have such faith in Islam then why are you worried about it being questioned? You need to learn that Islam is not exempt from scrutiny and that due to much exposure that many do not respect it today. Islam is seen as a political movement disguised as a religion. Not many are falling for the "religion" interpretation anymore. It is seen more of as a dying cult that likes to hold the world hostage.

Ok again you either are uneducated on this matter too or again deceptive. People argue all the time about was Hitler a Christian or an Athiest or just involved in the Occult, but despite anything the evil dictator used in his speeches to decieve others he made it quite clear that he had ultimate hate for the Jewish People. Christians are aware that The Old Testament of the Christian bible is the Jewish Tanakh, and the New Testament is built on these Jewish scriptures. The apostle Paul likened non Jewish Christians to wild olive branches grafted into the cultivated olive tree of Israel. So no Christian would ever hate the Jewish people. Paul says, "You, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root".

Lets take a look at Islam’s Nazi Connections http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles...le.asp?ID=4934

The Nazi Roots of Modern Radical Islam http://www.sftt.org/dwa/2002/12/18/2.html

The Nazi, Communist and Radical Islamist Connection http://www.mideastnewswire.com/archi...islamists.html

What is wrong with telling the truth? Why don't we stick with the facts. First of all anyone that has read the Koran knows there is much violence in it's messages commanded directly from Allah about the nonbelievers. And I think anyone that has read the New Testament and the Koran can see they both have a different message overall. You have tried to imply that "brainwashing" is only in the middle east and not in the religion itself? One only has to look at the UK at the mosque like Finsbury Park or in America to see that 80 percent of them and the Islamic Schools are Wahabi controlled.

Again....please read the Koran. The answer lies in the systematic brainwashing that Muslims are subjected to since birth. The majority of the Non-Islamic world has deluded itself into believing that the principles of Islam are tolerant in nature. This misconception is heightened when people think that the fault lies with only a handful of misguided Muslims who are not adhering to Islamic principles and hence indulge in terrorism. It is time for the entire world to realise that Islam by its very nature and through its essential principles openly supports, encourages and propogates Terrorism of the worst kind. Therefore the Islamic terrorist is in fact the most devout Muslim, because he is following exactly what Islam teaches through the Divine Koran. It is this very Koran which is considered by Muslims to be the holy word of their Allah himself. The Koran functions as the central terrorist manual that urges them to slaughter, rape, torture,pillage, mutilate and molest all Non-Muslims. http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevaja...errorist2.html

Testimonies:
Why I Left Islam http://www.secularislam.org/testimonies/

Hamas from Cradle to Grave
http://www.meforum.org/article/582

Muslim Disinformation Campaign http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Rea...le.asp?ID=5502

Islam’s “Plan” To Take Over the USA
in 20 Years http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=33898

I think you're entirely missing my point. I'm not going to defend a religion - I'm a committed atheist and I think that all religions are extremely harmful.

However, I think there are two issues being discussed here:
1) Whether or not the OP's statement was racist and misleading, or not. I hold the former position, and you the latter.

2) Whether or not it is the actual religion of Islam that causes terrorism, or whether it is something else. You hold the former, I hold the latter position. To be more specific, I think that it is in the nature of religion to be distorted, which is why it's dangerous. You have to remember that there are countless different translations and versions of the Koran, just like the Bible. This is why some people see it as peaceful, and other's see it as militant. Let's not forget that it was a Christian God who sent a flood to kill almost every living being on the planet, because they were not obeying him.

I also think that America's foreign policy, while not actually horrible, has been utilized by militant extremists to foster anti-Americanism, throwing in Islam because religion is helpful in getting people to throw away their lives. I think the fundamentalists are grossly distoring Islam. Apparently, the people on the various sides of the issue can't even agree on whether Islam means "peace" or "submission".

So basically, you think it's Islam, I think it's a multitude of factors. But this is essentially a debate that won't work. For every article you show me saying Islam promotes violence, I can show you another saying it promotes pacifism. The amount of misinformation on every side of the argument is so overwhelming that it would take some who did this as their job to really get any answers. I don't have that kind of time.



As for the first issue, I think it was racist and misleading because first of all, almost all Muslims have dark skin and a similar culture. I think race is more than just skin color. Culture, religion, etc. are all important aspects as well. To a lot of Americans, and Europeans too, when people start making lists of atrocities and saying "Muslims did it", while a technically factually correct statement, they're making implications which are highly questionable and dangerous. It's a gross oversimplification of a matter and statements like that cause a lot of people to say "Ya mean he's from Arabia? Must be a sand (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*) terrorist, and I hope he dies!"

__________________
"Violence isn't always evil. What's evil is the infatuation with violence."
Jim Morrison

[quote="MICcheck";p="76943"]
Well your forgetting one thing. Hitler become a Pagan afterwards. He used christianity so people would go along with it but he himself worshipped some pagan thunder god

It is Economic Desperations, not extreme Religiosity, that leads to extremism taking over.

seem to grasp whats going on with the whole situation of judging the
violence in terms of religion.

I have read some very interesting comments and views, interestingly when someone is seen in anyway as to "defend" the actions of the Muslim sides group of extremists, it's like a lamb surrounded by wolves...

Remember this, each country / locality / city town or village have their own localized problem. These problems are historic, for example the rich the poor, the never ending saga.....then there are the different degrees of this problem,
the individual has a relevance as does the country, the individual wants to have a good life, and the country, we hope strives for the good of it's people.

Hearing comments, defending religions, attacking religions, using the very name of a religion as a label, if the extremists say their actions are carried out in the name of god, then aren't we also falling into a trap where by we use "religion" as the sole cause and function of our countries actions and policies in these times?

The body count has become a statistic, a gage on how things are going.....

It has been said that in Rio De Janeiro, there are more deaths EVERY DAY due to gun battles between police and "criminal gangs", than that which we see reported from Iraq,
(Not sure if they meant before or after the "war")
(the kids of the gangs baring very much the majority of the loss!)

I found this a shocking fact. check out Ross Kemp's BBC documentary

Look at Africa, what could be described as a variety of wars going on, Dictators far worse that Saddam, continue to dominate, not a whisper of
the spread of democracy there, why?......many of us know why, even the people who could make a difference know why, but nothing is done.

Leave it to the Rock Stars, with all respect to those guys. They are far greater people that some leaders of countries. The goal ? a change and hope for a rescue to the already disastrous situation in some African nations.

Maybe they will also try and shed some similar hope on Iraq and other
war torn nations....Because if it's left to the GW and the "appointed" PM of Iraq, we'll continue to hear it's all moving forward nicely......

.....smile GW, smile, ( Shouldn't someone tell George not to smile when a reporter is asking a question about the carnage in Iraq, we know he already has the answer ready, please someone tell him to at least match facial expression with the topic at hand, show a sliver of sincerity, or would that be too real for his supporters ?)


Anyways, I guess my point is that we need to see through the dressing of politician's and their crone media peoples , the convenient labels,


Religion , as much as I disagree which some aspects of various religions, it's not the cause of this present situation of "War on Terror".....Fire on Inferno...



There are a lot of very very serious problems, I only hope the good does out weigh the bad, and that some justice and truth are actually realized by the people most effected......

For me , it costs more to drive now,

For my Iraqi peers, they would most likely wish for such a simple and trivial thing.

So what if Muslims did it as you claim?
Using your logic...
Christians killed 6 million Jews during the Holocaust.
Jews kill off Palestinians...
Hindus kill off Muslims in India...

Jeez, I'm trying to get what you're saying, but it's not coming clear to me.

Bottom line: Religion does not matter. People who claim to do it in the name of a religion use it as a pretext to seemingly justify their actions... of course, this is in their light. Not ours.

I'm a Muslim. Just so you know.

My first post.

SunSpear,israel doesen't kill palestininans in the name for religion,but for the name of israeli citizens staying safe..........of course the conflict is wrong,and of course gaza shouldn't have been conquered. but now were in here,and unless the hamas stoppes fighting,and gives up to logic,this isn't going to over. however,the arab countries in our wars had no problem using the diffrence of religions in order to stir up their armies against us.

__________________
To be free people,in our own land,the land of Zion and Jeruaslem

But people have done it and still do it.

Maybe not at the moment but it`s not unknown, is it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades#First_Crusade


How do you do that exactly? I mean what is the difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist? Not that I`m defending the LDRA, far, far from it, but I`ve seen the term `terrorist` used on this forum to describe insurgents, cultists, nazi germany, other posters, organised crime and the Chinese government. It`s the most over-used term in politics today but nobody can agree on what the difference is between terrorists and freedom fighters. Perhaps you have some insight? Or should we just use the term to describe any armed group that opposes us?



Don`t we all?

Not selective?


A pleasant thought but...is it wishful thinking? Gotta source to back that up?


Matthew
23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. "Ye are the children of them which killed the prophets."
Jesus condemns the Jews for being "the children of them which killed the prophets."
23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the (*)(*)(*)(*)ation of hell?

Er.. didn`t the Jews suffer centuries of oppression by christians?

I`ve read both the Bible and the Koran. They share this in common: There`s enough self-contradictions in both that anyone who wants to can cherry pick the bits that suit their agenda.


Well, yeah, bits of it do. But then again so do bits of the Bible

slaughter - Exodus - 17:13 to 17:16

Rape - Deuteronomy - 21:11 to 21:14

pillage - Deuteronomy 12:2 to 12:3

And so on, and so on.

I think Mic`s point is valid. Religion is a dangerous thing. It kills folk dead!

But, seriously, if you want to demonise Islam then it`s not too hard to do if you cherry pick the bits to suit your argument. The same as it`s easy to ridicule the bible if you cherry pick. Does that mean all/most christians uphold slaughter, rape and pillage? Of course not. Nor do most muslims.





Testimonies:
Why I Left Islam http://www.secularislam.org/testimonies/

Hamas from Cradle to Grave
http://www.meforum.org/article/582

Muslim Disinformation Campaign http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Rea...le.asp?ID=5502

Islam’s “Plan” To Take Over the USA
in 20 Years http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=33898[/quote]

__________________
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.
Marx (G.)