I notice that many arguments in support of restricting rights from gay people are fundamentally based on the notion that being gay is a choice.

If this is true there may be some logical basis for those arguments. I personally can't see that being gay is a choice and I base that assumption on the following:

Several years ago my wife and I were invited to go to a gay bar by a gay couple we happened to know. I was at first reluctant but eventually agreed to go.

When we got there, the first thing I noticed was how much my thinking had been skewed by bad stereotypes. True there were a few "flamers" who seemed to be the only people truly enjoying themselves but, as for the rest, all I saw were uber musceled uber handsome adoni that looked liked they'd just stepped off of the cover of a fashion magazine (it was a very trendy bar).

My wife went off to dance (for a change!) and I was left with the task of ordering the next round of drinks.

Sitting at the bar was one of the most attractive and glamorous women I had ever seen. She didn't look very happy though. We started to chat and it transpired that the guy she had come with (whom she knew to be gay) was somewhat ignoring her. I got the impression she was trying to do a "conversion job" but wasn't being that successful as the guy was more interested in talking to a bus driver called Dave.

At this point I reasoned that in no way could homosexuality be a matter of choice. I personaly know that I (were I not hitched) or any number of my straight mates would have SAWN OFF OUR RIGHT LEGS if we thought it would better our chances of getting within a mile of this goddess.

Not our gay guy though. Dave was definitely his flavour of the month.

I'd like to hear your views on this specific point. Please try to avoid political issues or religious arguments as they have been examined numerously in other posts.

A great deal of evidence does exist that homosexuality is genetic. But as a disciple of sociology, I tend to pay a lot of attention to the actual difficulty of determining whether something is genetic or cultural.
To a certain extent, there is culture involved. Until individualism really caught on a century or two ago, there was no distinction between "homosesuals" and "heterosexuals". There was simply normal and deviant sexual behavior. An act of homosexuality was not considered a part of a personality, but a sin or social taboo.
Whether it is genetic or not, there is a choice in acting upon the temptation. Thus acceptance of homosexuality does cause more of those with a propensity for homosexuality (genetic or cultural) to act upon their feelings. Also I have known so many bisexual girls in high school and men who actually committed gay acts to earn their attention, that I am suspect of some social influence. Though most of them who I still know have since "become" heterosexual.
I still fail to see, whether choice or genes, what this does to hurt society. Out of all the gay men I know, not one is into converting straight people as some people seem to believe they do. I think discrimination and violence of any sort are more destructive to society.

I really haven't read up enough about the genetics of homosexuality to know for sure if it can be genetic, but I do believe that for some gays it is a choice. The choice usually occurs in adolescents I believe. Some teens, myself included, simply don't feel that they fit in with the mainstream lifestyles. Therefore, they begin searching for alternatives. I remember in my high school there were numerous lifestyle choices. There were the normal ones (the jocks, preps), and there were the alternative- gothic, homosexual, freaks (my hs term for excessive drug users), punk, and so on. I think most who chose an alternative lifestyle didn't feel comfortable with a normal one, and homosexuals are no exception (at least some of them). I hold this opinion largely because I remember some "gays" in hs who are now married to women. Of course, many others are still gay. I guess my point is for some gays it's a choice, but for others it most likely a genetic preference. Sorry for the rambling nature of this post. I hope this makes to anyone other than myself.

__________________
LET ME SEE YOUR WAR FACE!!!

I remember when I was at school, I wasn't so much looking for a chance to embrace an alternative "lifestyle" like homosexuality as I was desperately trying to convince myself that I was 100% heterosexual. Choosing to engage in homosexual behaviour still requires that a person enjoy same-sex sexual conduct, which I think requires something other than merely a rebellious attitude to mainstream norms.
I actually ran into a guy two weeks ago who said he had a "gay phase" while in high school, but was now married. I would label such people as bisexual, although they probably wouldn't.

There are people who are attracted to both men and women, not always evenly, but we're the exception rather than rule when it comes to same-sex attraction I believe. Our existence tends to get obscured by (a) gay people who view heterosexuality as the enemy and insist people pick a side (b) gay people who used a bisexual identity as a stepping stone to embracing their true sexuality and mistake the bisexual label as always meaning "gay but still partially in the closet", and (c) people who view all people that engage in same-sex sexual activity as "homosexual", regardless of whether the people involved also have some opposite-sex attraction or not.
I am a bisexual man with a strong preference for men. I could "choose to be straight" and go out only with women, or I could "choose to be gay" and go out only with women. I don't pick a side because I don't see the point, and in any case the attraction to both genders would still be there. Most people don't have that luxury of choice.

Even if it is a choice, why do they not have the right to marry? I am just curious to reasons since I have always been on the same side of the argument. (pro-gay rights)

__________________
http://www.politicalyard.com - Talk politics, site upcoming
http://www.charliepage.net - My blog site

"Old soldiers never die; they just fade away" - Douglas MacArthur

Thanks for your input on the subject so far and to zellis' for a personal angle.

I'm not so sure that homosexuality has a "genetic" base. Genetics seems to be the buzzword for anything medical we do not yet understand. 20 years ago "psychological" was used in a similar way.

Genetics I think covers things like height or eye colour however I do believe that sexuality is an innate and in most cases uncontrollable human characteristic.

Rather than looking at the differences between straights and gays, I thought it would be more insightful to compare similarities.

One aspect that's often left out of these discussions is the emotional or "love" element of relationships and in these areas I see the most commonalities.

I asked two gay friends who are a couple how they came to the realisation that they were gay. Their answers were different but illuminating.

Both insited that they were 100% homosexual.

The first explained that while he was growing up he had had sexual experiences with both males and females. He said that both were pleasurable from a purely physical point of view. His real insight into his sexuality came at the age of 18 when he fell in love with another male. He understood at that point that he could never experience the same intensity of bonding with a person of the opposite sex. He lost any physical attracion to females soon after which he has never regained.

His description of the "process" of falling in love seemed pretty universal. This is not just a whimsical notion as there is plenty of scientific evidence to suggest a biological component when this happens to someone.

He felt that any acts of heterosexuality had been a "phase" (heard that before?) he was going thorough and in his words "Young boys experiment a lot sexualy but I've never met anyone who's grown up and married an apple pie!"

His partner offered a diffent perspective. He says he has never been attracted to females in any way and was in fact attracted to males at a very early "pre-sexual" stage in his life. He remembers comments being made about his sexuality from about the age of 7. Although he very much likes women as platonic friends, he is actually repulsed by the notion of heterosexual sex.

It could be argued that the first man is biologically bisexual in that he can physically perform a heterosexual "act" but his "choice" not to do so is arrived at by having no emotional imperative to do so, concern for the female in that he cannot respond to her on an emotional level and the fact that all of his physical and emotional needs are met within a relationship with another male.

Many western governments have a policy whereby a person can sponsor a foreign born partner for residence in their country. Most European countries allow for partners of either sex, the US only permits the benefit to married, opposite sex, partners. In all cases the simple possesion of a marriage certificate is not sufficient to qualify. The petitioners must prove that a genuine "love" relationship exists. Therefore, even at government level, love is considered an extant factor.

What if someone has a sex change? Does the law consider them legal to marry the partner who was once of the same sex? How does the State define this?

__________________
"It's never over... BOY!"
The Tall Man, Phantasm III

I'm guessing this is a question for US contributors (I'm UK). Any answers?

I'm not sure we should be confusing the issue of "gender" identity with sexuality. Gay people seem to be happy with their own gender, it's the gender of those they love that's the issue.

I don't really know any transgendered people but I'd be very interested to share their knowledge and views.

I think it is a choice for some but not for others. I believe this because if you put a group of men together for a long stretch of time and gave them no contact with women, some would end up having sex together whereas some (I include myself in this group) would never resort to homosexuality no matter how long they were away from a women. This can be seen in prisons, at sea and with cowboys in the old west. (There is a film about two gay cowboys out now, apparently homosexuality was quite common among some cowboys because of the long times away from women)

Similarly, as in Columbine's example, some gay men can be the target of desire from amazingly beautiful women and still go for a man.

__________________
It's the difference between suicide and slow capitulation... - Jim Morrison

Another question up for speculatuon.

__________________
LET ME SEE YOUR WAR FACE!!!