So you think being gay is wrong?

rwking · #1 (**permalink**) 10-11-2007, 11:42 AM

There are a lot of topics in this forum, most of which I can't waste my time with. So, I propose we have a conversation about why some people dislike homosexuals. I'm going to lay some ground rules that I think will help keep this conversation on the logical track, although I hardly expect them to be followed. :sigh:

1. When stating your opinion, please also describe why you feel the way you do.

2. When justifying your opinion, please don't use the Bible, what mom and dad always told you when you were growing up, or articles you've read as references. I think we can all agree that you can't believe everything you hear or read, because a lot of times they don't come from objective sources. Also, I would really like to encourage and foster individual thinking in this conversation. Recitation is useless, pointless, and a waste of time. If you're going to post what someone else has published, quoted, etc., then save it. I can go to the source and read it myself. Interpretation is different than recitation. Also, it's obvious that moral upbringing will weigh heavily on your opinions. I expect that. However, simply saying "because the Bible says so" is just not sufficient evidence that gay marriage should not be legalized, gays should be banned from the US, etc.

3. Don't suppress anyone's opinion. As long as someone states their opinion and explains why they feel that way, then it's totally acceptable to post whatever you want. However, know this: if you dare type something like "homosexuality is wrong" without any justification, or "gays are going to hell," then be prepared to get burned. I won't suppress opinions, but I will suppress ignorance. If you've got something to say, then say it, explain it, and if appropriate, back it up.

So with that, let's begin...

What's your beef with homosexuality?

greatamerican128 · #2 (**permalink**) 10-14-2007, 05:17 AM

Here are the main points of my argument on why homosexuality should not be accepted. And by accepted I mean, by society, I don't believe the government should enforce its beliefs either way on this issue. I do not believe the government should ban it(homosexuality as a lifestyle, I'm not referring to gay marriage here because I support the banning of same-sex marriage) altogether or promote homosexual marriage.

Now here are my main arguments

1) It is against the Bible
Before you ring the "No Bible" bell let me explain why this is important. To put it simply the Bible has given all Americans their values. Now at first you may glance at this statement and declare it false. However, if you look at it from a logical perspective it makes much more sense. Remember the first people who colonized the United States, who were they? Christian (puritans and such) people. Now tell me who gives a society its standards and values? The people. So therefore, the people who read and practiced the Bible set America's moral standard. Do you honestly believe people would have magically learned their values and morals? No they had to have a strong basis for them and that was the Bible. Now what do parents teach their children? How to behave and live morally rightful lives. So therefore, the Bible, which was the basis of the values of the colonists, was taught through the generations to children who then set the moral standard of society. That is why there are people who clearly choose not to break the law and to help others in society. Now many people will argue, not all good people in society are Christian. And of course that is true. Again, though, Christianity is the reason society has standards among the general population. So in a sense, by accepting homosexuality as a culture and legalizing same-sex marriage, we are putting a dent in America's foundation for good values and morals.

2) The slippery slope
One dent? Not a problem right? Many people argue that accepting homosexuality and same-sex marriage is only one small issue in the long term moral foundation of America. However, once people feel it is fine for one immoral practice other value related issues and problems are bound to follow. Certainly, then if one practice against the Bible is fine then others must be fine as well. Many people would tell themselves “If I steal something it must be fine too, or perhaps one lie to cover up a wrongdoing is OK.” Now that is not to say people don’t already lie and steal, because it does and always will happen. But promoting and accepting homosexuality would give individuals a reason and a personal justification to not feel guilty for these kinds of acts. In essence problem A leads to problem B which leads to problem C and so on.

And I will reference another post of mine

Acceptance is a double edged sword, on one hand it is necessary to let other cultures enjoy and live in the U.S. On the other hand, the extreme side(which I see in atheists and liberals quite a bit), is malevolent to any nation, this side is about accepting other cultures and ideas(such as homosexuality) so much that you simply disregard any morals and sense of right or wrong because "no one's opinion is correct" and there is no ethical standard because everyone thinks differently, this thinking is a large part of what is degrading society.

rwking · #3 (**permalink**) 10-16-2007, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128";p=&quot

To put it simply the Bible has given all Americans their values.

First of all, the original inhabitants of the Americas where the Native Americans. Before the settlers came from Europe, Native Americans had no idea what the Bible was. This brings me to my next point: morals are a very personal ideal. They vary from individual to individual and religion to religion. Not everyone believes in the teachings of the Bible, and therefore they may or may not have the same morals or values. I realize your point was the influence of Christianity on the founding of society in the United States, however you must realize that the population no longer reflects Christianity as the only religion.

Think of it this way: our Constitution has the ability to adapt to changes in society through amendments. The Bill of Rights, Abolition of Slavery and Women's Suffrage were all possible because of our ability to change laws due to changes in society. Much like the stigma that homosexuality carries, there used to be one associated with blacks. By the way, if you've read the Bible, then you know it says it's OK to own slaves. My point is, and I'm not the first one to make it in this forum, how do you presume to pick and choose which rules you are going to follow from the Bible? If that's your justification for not accepting homosexuals, then you better also not wear any clothing that has blended fibers, cut your hair or shave, oh and if you know of a priest whose daughter is "easy," you have to burn her at the stake. Have fun with that last one!

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

Remember the first people who colonized the United States, who were they? Christian (puritans and such) people.

This is somewhat correct. The settlers were Christian. However, note the definition of "colony" - "a body of people living in a new territory but retaining ties with the parent state." We declared our independence from Mother England on July 4th, 1776. So, you can't use our roots as a basis for argument, because at the time of the Declaration of Independence, Europeans and Native Americans were not the only cultures here. Slave trading began in the 1640s. That means we've now introduced a third body of people, the Africans, with over 130 years of slave trading. You might try to argue that slaves were not citizens at the time, however if you do argue that, then you better hope there are no African American readers. Of course slaves were citizens, both of society and humanity, they just weren't recognized by the government as citizens of the nation. So, the people who colonized America, Bibles in hand, ignored the rights of not only the individuals who inhabited the land before them (Native Americans), but they also brought another culture to the land and suppressed their rights as human beings (Africans). Looking back, I think we can all see that when the settlers came from Europe with their Bibles, they didn't exactly make the wisest or most humanitarian decisions. Oh yeah, people that read the Bible were also responsible for the Salem Witch Trials. Do you see why I don't like when the Bible is used as a source of reason? Some of the most unreasonable people read the Bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

Now tell me who gives a society its standards and values? The people.

You're right. The people define the society. There may be more Christians than any other religion in the United States, however the government has the
responsibility to represent all citizens, regardless of gender, race, or creed. So, if religion is out of the picture, then people should look objectively upon sexuality. Unfortunately for homosexuals wanting to be viewed as equals in society, there is too much emotion involved with religion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

Now what do parents teach their children? How to behave and live morally rightful lives.

This is a generalization. You cannot account for what all parents teach their children. You might like to think that they teach their children "good values," but that doesn't make it so. Also, what some parents teach their children might be right for them, but not right by your standards. Everyone defines their own values. What's right for you is not necessarily going to be right for someone else, and vice versa. Recently on the news, a mother was arrested for buying her child assault rifles and other weapons which he was planning on using in a "Columbine-like" attack at his school. Obviously some parents don't even teach their children to uphold the law.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

So therefore, the Bible, which was the basis of the values of the colonists, was taught through the generations to children who then set the moral standard of society.

This is also a generalization. Not every family taught their children about the Bible. I realize that the majority probably did, however you are failing to see the fallacy in making generalizations. You are classing out the other group of people as if they don't matter. This is fundamental bias.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

So in a sense, by accepting homosexuality as a culture and legalizing same-sex marriage, we are putting a dent in America's foundation for good values and morals.

What you call a "dent," I call positive change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

One dent? Not a problem right? Many people argue that accepting homosexuality and same-sex marriage is only one small issue in the long term moral foundation of America. However, once people feel it is fine for one immoral practice other value related issues and problems are bound to follow. Certainly, then if one practice against the Bible is fine then others must be fine as well. Many people would tell themselves “If I steal something it must be fine too, or perhaps one lie to cover up a wrongdoing is OK.” Now that is not to say people don’t already lie and steal, because it does and always will happen. But promoting and accepting homosexuality would give individuals a reason and a personal justification to not feel guilty for these kinds of acts. In essence problem A leads to problem B which leads to problem C and so on.

I find it very difficult to respond to rampant generalizations and flagrant assumptions. You assume that homosexuals are devoid of morals because
they're gay? Essentially, that's exactly what any reader can interpret from this paragraph. "Because homosexuality is OK; stealing is OK" I think the only truth in your paragraph is when you pointed out that people "already lie and steal," which ultimately invalidates your argument. Lying and stealing are nothing new, friend. Don't assume they will all of a sudden be accepted by society just because homosexuality is. Stealing is a crime. You break the law when you steal. You do not break the law by being gay. These are two incomparable acts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

On the other hand, the extreme side(which I see in atheists and liberals quite a bit), is malevolent to any nation, this side is about accepting other cultures and ideas(such as homosexuality) so much that you simply disregard any morals and sense of right or wrong...

First of all, mentioning politics in this argument is not only unnecessary, but a waste of time. There are gay conservatives and gay liberals.

If our nation were governed by religious ideals, I would agree with you that it would not be in the best interest of the U.S. to accept other ways of life. News Flash: that's not how this country works. In the United States, we are all free and equal. There is no standard for morality. In my opinion, that is what makes America so great. We can do and say as we please as citiznes of humanity without fear of recourse - as long as we act within the limits of the law.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

because "no one's opinion is correct" and there is no ethical standard because everyone thinks differently, this thinking is a large part of what is degrading society.

Yet again, you're assuming we all live by the same standards. It has been my experience that holding people to standards that you set for yourself will
almost always end in disappointment. Everyone is different. That will never change.

greatamerican128 · #4 (**permalink**) 10-16-2007, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwking";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128";p=&quot

To put it simply the Bible has given all Americans their values.

First of all, the original inhabitants of the Americas where the Native Americans. Before the settlers came from Europe, Native Americans had no idea what the Bible was. This brings me to my next point: morals are a very personal ideal. They vary from individual to individual and religion to religion. Not everyone believes in the teachings of the Bible, and therefore they may or may not have the same morals or values. I realize your point was the influence of Christianity on the founding of society in the United States, however you must realize that the population no longer reflects Christianity as the only religion.

Think of it this way: our Constitution has the ability to adapt to changes in society through amendments. The Bill of Rights, Abolition of Slavery and Women's Suffrage were all possible because of our ability to change laws due to changes in society. Much like the stigma that homosexuality carries, there used to be one associated with blacks. By the way, if you've read the Bible, then you know it says it's OK to own slaves. My point is, and I'm not the first one to make it in this forum, how do you presume to pick and choose which rules you are going to follow from the Bible? If that's your justification for not accepting homosexuals, then you better also not wear any clothing that has blended fibers, cut your hair or shave, oh and if you know of a priest whose daughter is "easy," you have to burn her at the stake. Have fun with that last one!

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

Remember the first people who colonized the United States, who were they? Christian (puritans and such) people.

This is somewhat correct. The settlers were Christian. However, note the definition of "colony" - "a body of people living in a new territory but retaining ties with the parent state." We declared our independence from Mother England on July 4th, 1776. So, you can't use our roots as a basis for argument, because at the time of the Declaration of Independence, Europeans and Native Americans were not the only cultures here. Slave trading began in the 1640s. That means we've now introduced a third body of people, the Africans, with over 130 years of slave trading. You might try to argue that slaves were not citizens at the time, however if you do argue that, then you better hope there are no African American readers. Of course slaves were citizens, both of society and humanity, they just weren't recognized by the government as citizens of the nation. So, the people who colonized America, Bibles in hand, ignored the rights of not only the individuals who inhabited the land before them (Native Americans), but they also brought another culture to the land and suppressed their rights as human beings (Africans). Looking back, I think we can all see that when the settlers came from Europe with their Bibles, they didn't exactly make the wisest or most humanitarian decisions. Oh yeah, people that read the Bible were also responsible for the Salem Witch Trials. Do you see why I don't like when the Bible is used as a source of reason? Some of the most unreasonable people read the Bible.

However, most people in early America read the Bible. And John Jay must have been unreasonable because he read the bible right? Not exactly. He was actually one of the most peace seeking colonists and made people angry by being so peaceful and compromising. He was also the first supreme court chief justice in the history of the US. And then again since you say read the Bible you would also be referring to James Madison and John Adams as well, correct? Also, why do you insist on making false claims about the Bible? The Bible does not endorse slavery but in fact, clearly demonstrates that it is incorrect. For example, take Moses who freed his people(who were slaves) from the pharaoh, God gave him the power to free the slaves and Moses ended up delivering his people from oppression. About the Salem witch trials, they were a trick by a few teenage girls, which went horribly wrong. It was mass hysteria, and when this happens people are going to be killed. I am not stating it was right, because it was a truly horrendous incident, however you shouldn't generalize Christians because of one incident in history.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

Now tell me who gives a society its standards and values? The people.

You're right. The people define the society. There may be more Christians than any other religion in the United States, however the government has the
responsibility to represent all citizens, regardless of gender, race, or creed. So, if religion is out of the picture, then people should look objectively upon sexuality. Unfortunately for homosexuals wanting to be viewed as equals in society, there is too much emotion involved with religion.

No, decency and good values is why people object to homosexuality, including me. What if we don't want our children to be brainwashed by anti-religious propaganda and same-sex acceptance in society? I see you want the all accepting society, which will never work. In order to function, a society must have a moral foundation, otherwise it will fail. People will not magically learn right from wrong. And if you believe values are universal take a look at Stalin or Hitler, both fascists who slaughtered millions of people, they certainly had good values, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

Now what do parents teach their children? How to behave and live morally rightful lives.

This is a generalization. You cannot account for what all parents teach their children. You might like to think that they teach their children "good values," but that doesn't make it so. Also, what some parents teach their children might be right for them, but not right by your standards. Everyone defines their own values. What's right for you is not necessarily going to be right for someone else, and vice versa. Recently on the news, a mother was arrested for buying her child assault rifles and other weapons which he was planning on using in a "Columbine-like" attack at his school. Obviously some parents don't even teach their children to uphold the law.

Let me bring up a larger question, what do you believe would happen if our society started accepting "everyone's values". It would collapse. Because some people's beliefs include stealing, murder, and such. Should society accept the belief systems of radicals and extremists, which often involve murdering non-believers? How about vampire ism? or neo-Nazis?

The reality is that accepting all belief systems and values would be a horrible idea. The reason that most American people have decency, respect, and morals is because of their good values and beliefs such as the values of Christianity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

So therefore, the Bible, which was the basis of the values of the colonists, was taught through the generations to children who then set the moral standard of society.

This is also a generalization. Not every family taught their children about the Bible. I realize that the majority probably did, however you are failing to see the fallacy in making generalizations. You are classing out the other group of people as if they don't matter. This is fundamental bias.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

So in a sense, by accepting homosexuality as a culture and legalizing same-sex marriage, we are putting a dent in America's foundation for good values and morals.

What you call a "dent," I call positive change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

One dent? Not a problem right? Many people argue that accepting homosexuality and same-sex marriage is only one small issue in the long term moral foundation of America. However, once people feel it is fine for one immoral practice other value related issues and problems are bound to follow. Certainly, then if one practice against the Bible is fine then others must be fine as well. Many people would tell themselves “If I steal something it must be fine too, or perhaps one lie to cover up a wrongdoing is OK.” Now that is not to say people don’t already lie and steal, because it does and always will happen. But promoting and accepting homosexuality would give individuals a reason and a personal justification to not feel guilty for these kinds of acts. In essence problem A leads to problem B which leads to problem C and so on.

I find it very difficult to respond to rampant generalizations and flagrant assumptions. You assume that homosexuals are devoid of morals because
they're gay? Essentially, that's exactly what any reader can interpret from this paragraph. "Because homosexuality is OK; stealing is OK" I think the only truth in your paragraph is when you pointed out that people "already lie and steal," which ultimately invalidates your argument. Lying and stealing are nothing new, friend. Don't assume they will all of a sudden be accepted by society just because homosexuality is. Stealing is a crime. You break the law when you steal. You do not break the law by being gay. These are two incomparable acts.

Firstly, that is an Interpretation, not exactly what I stated. And from numerous surveys and research(warning: link contains mature terms)many homosexuals are more perverse than straight people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

On the other hand, the extreme side(which I see in atheists and liberals quite a bit), is malevolent to any nation, this side is about accepting other cultures and ideas(such as homosexuality) so much that you simply disregard any morals and sense of right or wrong...

First of all, mentioning politics in this argument is not only unnecessary, but a waste of time. There are gay conservatives and gay liberals.

If our nation were governed by religious ideals, I would agree with you that it would not be in the best interest of the U.S. to accept other ways of life. News Flash: that's not how this country works. In the United States, we are all free and equal. There is no standard for morality. In my opinion, that is what makes America so great. We can do and say as we please as citiznes of humanity without fear of recourse - as long as we act within the limits of the law.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

because "no one's opinion is correct" and there is no ethical standard because everyone thinks differently, this thinking is a large part of what is degrading society.

Yet again, you're assuming we all live by the same standards. It has been my experience that holding people to standards that you set for yourself will
almost always end in disappointment. Everyone is different. That will never change.

Again you are embracing the idea of an all-accepting society. And guess what, the only reason we have the law is because of the Bible. You said that most citizens read the Bible, well guess where the courts core ideals came from? The ten commandments. Why do you believe we do not accept murder or cheating? Why do you think the ten commandments are posted outside many courthouses and pictures of Jesus hang inside?

Here are a few quotes

“The law given from Sinai was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code... laws essential to the existence of men in society and most of which have been enacted by every nation which ever professed any code of laws.”
-John Quincy Adams

“[L]aw, natural or revealed, made for men or for nations, flows from the same Divine source: it is the law of God... Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is Divine... Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other.”
-James Wilson, Signer of the Constitution, U.S. Supreme Court Justice

If Christianity did not exist then there would be no core basis for today's laws.

rwking · #5 (**permalink**) 10-17-2007, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

And John Jay must have been unreasonable because he read the bible right? Not exactly. He was actually one of the most peace seeking colonists and made people angry by being so peaceful and compromising. He was also the first supreme court chief justice in the history of the US. And then again since you say read the Bible you would also be referring to James Madison and John Adams as well, correct?

Actually, I never said that everyone who reads the Bible is unreasonable. I said that not everyone who reads the Bible is reasonable, which makes the Bible a weak defense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

Also, why do you insist on making false claims about the Bible? The Bible does not endorse slavery

Actually, it does.

Leviticus 25:44

"Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigor."

I guess you don't know the Bible as well as you thought you did.

You can reference the following link. It has 10 of the most popular translations of the Bible; they all basically say the same thing. http://bible.cc/leviticus/25-44.htm

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

For example, take Moses who freed his people(who were slaves) from the pharaoh, God gave him the power to free the slaves and Moses ended up delivering his people from oppression.

You're correct, however this is because according to the Bible, the Israelites are God's chosen people. The Bible says that men can have slaves as long as the slaves are not Israelites. -- That's a tad bit biased; don't you think??

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

however you shouldn't generalize Christians because of one incident in history.

I wasn't generalizing Christians. I was simply stating that Christians were responsible for the Salem Witch Trials. Regardless, my point is that people were killed in the name of God, from the Bible, because people could not think logically for themselves. The witch trials are only one example of this throughout history.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

No, decency and good values is why people object to homosexuality

This is a matter of opinion and I've already addressed it in my previous post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

What if we don't want our children to be brainwashed by anti-religious propaganda and same-sex acceptance in society?

By anti-religious I assume you mean anti-Christian? Either way, there are countless homosexuals throughout the world who happen to be members of all denominations of Christianity, non-Christian religions, spiritual, etc. Don't presume that it is OK to group anti-religious and same-sex acceptance together. It is not. THAT is a generalization.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

I see you want the all accepting society, which will never work.

What proof do you have that a peaceful, accepting society can not live in harmony? That's an illogical argument. You have no evidence to support it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

In order to function, a society must have a moral foundation, otherwise it will fail.

Prove it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

People will not magically learn right from wrong.

In society, laws govern what is right and what is wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

And if you believe values are universal take a look at Stalin or Hitler, both fascists who slaughtered millions of people, they certainly had good values, right?

I fail to see your point. I never said values are universal; in fact that is exactly the opposite of what I said. I said they are personal and vary from individual to individual.

rwking · #6 (**permalink**) 10-17-2007, 12:28 PM

I found two specific things that I did not previously reply to, which I now wish to address.

1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

Firstly, that is an Interpretation, not exactly what I stated. And from numerous surveys and research(warning: link contains mature terms)many homosexuals are more perverse than straight people.

First of all, I have no interest in reading that publication. It is from a Christian Conservative group that is not looking objectively at homosexuality nor the statistics concerning it. You spoke previously of propaganda... well that, sir, is propaganda.

2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatamerican128

If Christianity did not exist then there would be no core basis for today's laws.

This is simply not true. Law and code of honor existed centuries before the origins of Christianity. Christianity started in the 1st century AD. Roman Law, the law of Ancient Rome, was first recorded in the 5th century BC, over 400 years before the inception of Christianity. (Note that this does not account for law that was in effect but previously unrecorded, which could date back even earlier.)

You can reference that here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_law#Origins

Also, I would like to draw your attention to the first three sentences of this article on Wikipedia:

Quote:

from: Wikipedia - "Roman Law"
Using the term Roman law in a broader sense, one may say that Roman law is not only the legal system of ancient Rome but the law that was applied throughout most of Europe until the end of the 18th century. In some countries like Germany the practical application of Roman law lasted even longer. For these reasons, many modern civil law systems in Europe and elsewhere are heavily influenced by Roman law.

So as you can see, Roman Law influenced modern law substantially. This is even evident in the terminology of the legal system. Why do you think so many terms are Latin phrases?

I would also like to note that Ancient Greek Law was the precursor and intellectual source of Roman Law.

Reference: http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/world/greece.htm

Guess what that means! Exactly - it's older than Roman Law! So, the history of law predates that of Christianity by a recorded date of over 400 years. Also, accounting for any law that was unrecorded, including Ancient Greek Law, it dates back even further before that of Christianity. And as you can see from my sources, they have had a tremendous impact on most modern legal systems.

As an aside, I'm not sure where you're getting your information from, but I have disproven nearly all of your claims by using Google. Perhaps you should research a bit more before writing a bunch of crap and wasting my time.

BoogiePeople · #7 (**permalink**) 10-17-2007, 12:29 PM

The poll is broken.

I keep hitting the "refresh" button, but it always fails to add the "Don't Care" choice to your poll.

rwking · #8 (**permalink**) 10-17-2007, 12:31 PM

Touché!

africanhope · #9 (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 12:23 PM

it is not the Bible that stops people from lying and stealing. The law of HAmmurabi, that predatesthe ten commandments by quite a few years, also forbade these things.

Therefor to say 'The bible forbids homosexuality, so if we start allowing it, the poeple would ignore other parts of the bible too' is a flase deduction.

I myself, for instance, am not a christian. I do not steal, murder, or do anything against the secular law (okay, I do drive over teh speed limit). But I do not steal or murder, because of the secular law, but because it is against MY morals. Allowing gays to marry or what not, will not change this

AH

View Poll Results: Are you against homosexuality?
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