I know where you are going, and yes, for the sake of the people on the other side of the line, they hope it wont be drawn too close to their choices. However, that line is drawn in hundreds of aspects of daily life. Just because it's close to a segment of our population that doesn't like it there, does not negate the necessity of it.

It's not that people will be "receptive". Its the removal of the barrier. If this man can marry that man, why can't I marry my cat? This is a very credible threat, because the institution itself is eroded by an absence of moral absolute. If you will let her, marry him, why can't he marry "it". If I can't throw my frizz-bee on the beach because it might hurt someone, then why does he get to throw his football? People use it all the time. There are plenty of social mechanisms that people who are gay, get to enjoy under the current laws, that married people don't. So why come and insist on playing in our sand box. Leave our institution just the way we set it up. We like it that way. If your idea is so great, then go pitch it to the public with all your convincing proofs. When Ernst Rhome starts making the rules, then the end is near.

The only people who really want gay marriage are the trial lawyers, and I will tell you why. What better result could you possibly hope for, that to increase the social and economic class of your litigants. Just think about it, two income house hold with both adults working, fighting over custody of an 11 year old boy, with one biological parent and one not. Wow. If there aren't enough damaged children out there already.

If you remove the whole fact that God says its wrong. Then I can only argue from a standpoint that it just doesn't make sense. But eventually, without an external value system, any concerted campaign striving to shape the attitudes of a culture towards a specific behavior, will let it go. Sure, why not? Let em do what they want, they aren't hurting anyone, they are adults.

Honestly, I am sticking to my guns because I believe God says its bad. Without God saying its bad, I would say you have an excellent case. Reap the results of your own destiny. My kids know that when I say that, I am leaving them to discover what's around the next bend in the road. Two of them stop dead in their tracks when I say that, because they already (experience is a good teacher) know the outcome and they rethink their position. This society will either stand their ground or give in. Either way, I have done my best to warn against it. The people who vote for it, I predict will look back and say they should have listened. I hope that never happens.

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"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." March 4, 1869, Grant's First Inaugural Address

The 18th Amendment is a great example of that. If the states don't like something, they have the power to make it the law of the land.

I think you have a great point here. You can sit in your chair and draw a common sense observation like that, because you grew up with certain normative assumptions about the world around you. But if you talk to my neighbor's kid, Fluffy is as much of a citizen as Timmy. Death to Merc executives for experimenting on animals.

I think the gay community should be able to recognize extreme examples because I get compared to a Nazi all the time. On campus I alone protested the 10% society from getting on campus recognition and becoming eligible for public money, even tho I proved that the group doing something morally objectionable to many students and that they didn't want their tuition money funding their radical agenda. Grounds used to defeat the acceptance of other groups. I was beaten down like a red headed step child and the faculty sponsor was non-other than my own chair, so I found my grades go down considerably, after that as well.

Some time extreme examples are the appropriate things. Otherwise Neville Chamberlain would never have stepped down. The people believed Mr. Churchill, and it turns out he was correct.

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"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." March 4, 1869, Grant's First Inaugural Address

I agree that most legal lines are necessarily arbitrary. I just disagree with the "slippery slope" argument for never moving the line.

Because those two are not logically equivalent. A does not equal B. I could just as easily say, "If this man can marry that woman, why can't I marry a squid?" My God, man; once you allow marriage, you open the door to all sorts of things!

No, it's not. It's a logical fallacy.

Huh? What moral absolute is that? And shouldn't there be logical, defensible reasons to support "moral absolutes"?

That is hardly a good argument. Sure, pedophiles will always seek to have pedophilia legalized; that doesn't mean it's going to happen. You don't have to ban *everything* in order to ban one thing.

Name one.

And then explain how that makes up for their exclusion from such basic rights of partnership as survivorship, property rights, medical decisions, parental rights, tax breaks....

Why do opponents of gay marriage always end up invoking bestiality and Nazis?

I'll admit, that's a new one. Spurious, but new.

I do. I'm agnostic. And this country is made up of lots of people with widely varying religious beliefs. The dogma of a given religion is not a valid foundation for governmental policy. The state must demonstrate a compelling civil interest.

That's pretty much it -- and the basis of most principles of limited government and individual freedom. What makes it a serious issue beyond that, though, is all the legal and financial benefits attached to marriage. Detach those, and I couldn't care less if gays ever get married.

Okay then.

That's pretty apocalyptic talk. In practical terms, what do you honestly think will happen if gays are allowed to marry?

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Man up.

usgrant, the problem with the slippery slope argument is its applicable to heterosexual marriage as well. if man and woman can marry, why not man and it? the best solution, im my opinion, is to make marriage an entirely private matter to the extent that the state and federal governments have no influence whatsoever.

on the issue of god saying its bad, is there any scripture that touches on the issue of gay marriage? i know of scripture addressing homosexuality in general, but specifically on the subject of marriage ive never seen anything. the reason i ask is because there are other things the bible dislikes (besides just homosexuality), liars, adulterers, etc.

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https://www.voteforchange.com/

No one is forcing you to "teach" anything. You do know you have the option of not responding, right?

Words cant facilitate understanding if we are not using common definitions. That isn't obvious to you?



I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. If it bothers you, ignore me. You have the power to stop the conversation whenever you want.

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My Political Blog (Updated Oct 3rd) - Which Flame Warrior are you?

obviously. i didnt give you an english lesson today. i dont need you to give me the benefit of the doubt. youre the one forum member that needs clarification on what people are saying in almost every thread you post in. sometimes its just ignorance, other times its disingenuity. i dont care to make the distinction, you dont learn from mistakes anyway. youre liable to start another poll thread to put your ignorance on display if i encourage you.

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https://www.voteforchange.com/

Then why are you still responding to me? Why do you care?

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My Political Blog (Updated Oct 3rd) - Which Flame Warrior are you?

i often address posts that address mine, its not complicated.

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https://www.voteforchange.com/

Because the "norm" is man and woman. No society has ever flourished under any other model. The most successful cultures in the history of man kind have always been hetro-cultures. The most graphic examples of cultural failure have always been preceded by the breakdown of that model.

Before anyone can consider same sex marriage, we must first remember what the Bible says about homosexuality. The Bible clearly and consistently tells us that homosexual activity is a sin (Genesis 19:1-13; Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9). God does not create a person with homosexual desires. A person becomes a homosexual because of sin (Romans 1:24-27), and ultimately because of his or her own choice. A person may be born with a greater susceptibility to homosexuality, just as people are born with a tendency to violence and other sins. That does not excuse the person choosing to sin by giving into their weaknesses. If a person is born with a greater susceptibility to anger / rage, does that make it right for them to give into those desires? Of course not! The same is true for homosexuality.

As for the definition of marriage, the Bible clearly makes a gender distinction.

What does a healthy, successful marriage look like?

• It's a partnership between a man and a woman. Genesis 2:18-23
• Forgives. Exodus 32:11-14
• Loves—forever. Song of Solomon 8:5-7
• Mirrors the love of God. Hosea 14:4-8
• Team effort. Acts 18
• Focused and committed. Hebrews 13:4
• You realize it requires both union and separation. Genesis 2:18-25
• You accept your spouse's family as your own. Ruth 1:15-18
• You feel each other's pain and joy. 1 Corinthians 12:12-31
• To be godly in attitude and actions. Proverbs 31:10-31
• To be wise, godly, and cheerful—no matter what. Ecclesiastes 7:11-14
• To think of your husband before yourself. Colossians 3:15-19

The fact that without exception the Bible condemns homosexuality and puts marriage in the exclusive context of a "man" and a "woman", ensures Bible Reader is aware of God's intentions, and his design. Marriage is built for only one thing. A relationship between a man and a woman.

My personal favorite is this: He that findeth a wife, findeth a good thing and obtaineth favor from God Prov 18:22.

Just because the Bible never says two men can not marry, specifically, doesn't mean you can just go ahead and hook up. Just because I fail to tell my kids not to lie today, doesn't mean they can lie up a storm. The Bible isn't specific about a great deal of life-issues, but covers them all. Does it say, thou shalt not have elective cosmetic surgury? No. Does it say, be content with how God has made you? Yes. Does it say, don't have plastic surgury? No. Does it say that God has given wisdom to doctors to help you over come certain ailments? Yes.

You get my point...

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"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." March 4, 1869, Grant's First Inaugural Address

I will give you my prediction:

1. Divorce among gay couples will be somewhere in the 70 to 80% range. Just look at Mass. right now...
2. More and more children adopted by gays will be left to the state to rescue.
3. Same sex friends will exploit the system for their own financial gains.
4. Benefits afforded to homosexuals will drive up the cost of benefits to htro-married couples.
5. New class of domestic court issues will destroy a family court system already bogged down with hetro-marrieds.
6. Blurring the roles of a traditional mother and father will erode children's expectations of what a healthy family looks like and make it increasingly difficult to sustain the model of "mom" and "dad".

I will give this country one generation of survivability if gay marriage is the law of the land.

From a Christian perspective, since I believe God is real. He will remove his protection from our nation, if we turn our collective backs on him.

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"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." March 4, 1869, Grant's First Inaugural Address