Thread: Pastor losing congregation over his pro-homosexual stand

Johnny said,

"They are more "out" than gays ever have been. They are even accepted socially and legally in America. Go figure."

I meant to say…they have never had to come out. Our church stands on the Word. And the Word says…that God did NOT INTEND COUPLES TO DIVORCE. God set boundaries on divorce. But today…that too is poo poo'd and people accept it like other immoral things. That does not mean it is right. BAck in my parents day….it was humiliating to get a divorce….out of the question having a child out of wedlock. Now its hip to do both…but not in Gods eyes.

"Just as the barbaric and unjust discrimination against them is also front/center. It bothers you and others a great deal, to see homosexual people stand up for themselves, doesn't it?"

They have every right to try to convince people about their position. But…they do not have every right to force my Church into marrying them. They do not have every right to stop free speech against their lifestyle. And that is what the Hate Crimes Bill will do….silent Christians and Churches.
Today gays are accepted like never before. They are on television with their own shows…they are in movies…they have high powered jobs. It is not like it used to be. They will not be happy until society accepts their lifestyle as normal. Tolerance is not enough, its acceptance or nothing else.

"If homosexual people are HUMAN, then they ARE "equal". (What the hell are you talking about?)"

I am talking about IN THE CHURCHES. They do not want pastors to preach against what they are doing. They want them silenced…and many want the Bible declared as hate speech.

"I said homosexual people were "sinners"; do you know what that means?"

Homosexual sex is sin. We are all sinners.

"I think before then, the Spirit of God will rip the hypocrisy and pride from the Christian Church... conscience-by-conscience. The hypocrisy you embrace in your words above, is astounding."

Do you think their is pride outside the Christian Church or do you give all nonbelievers a pat on the back? God will show His wrath especially on nonbelievers. Everyone will be judged by their actions and words. No excuses will He hear.

What is hypocritical that I have said? You don't think I stand on the Word?

"I hope they lock themselves in, for a good amount of time too."

This comment shows exactly what I mean. Your statement shows that you are not tolerant and you want people shut up and locked up. If I had said…all homosexuals should be locked up…you would have been on my case….but tolerant you are NOT.

"Your premise if disgusting on MANY levels; especially on the spiritual level. "

What is disgusting? Following Gods Word is disgusting?

"Evidently (based upon your handling of it), it surely IS "different". People talking the way you do right here, is only adding to the problems which exist in this world."

Sin is sin…I never said that homosexual or heterosexual sin is worse than any other sin. All sin….misses the mark that God sets for us.

"Look through these fora, and see where virtually ANY other "sin" is handled as frequently and harshly as homosexuality is. Christianity in America has essentially managed to justify BIGOTRY against homosexual people. I will not ever see where Jesus Christ (the biblical Jesus) would approve of that."

Jesus is One with the Father. He backs up the Genesis account of creation. God said….marriage is between ONE WOMAN AND ONE MAN. God said all sex…..DID YOU GET THIS?…..ALL SEX….OUTSIDE MARRIAGE IS SIN. This has all come to light because of many high profile things going on in the country….the Hate Crimes Laws and same sex marriage. It is being voted on state by state. And in most states it has been turned down. Only overruled by liberal judges…one who is gay. No bias was there…

How are homosexuals being treated harshly? Why would Jesus condone homosexuality and not other sins? Do you think Jesus would say…adultery is ok? Abortion? Child Pornography? Rape?

Show me one scripture in the entire Bible…where God condones sex outside marriage? Show me one, just one gay marriage? Then explain why that in both OT and NT that people who went against his Word…by having sex in the ways He said were wrong…….are all over the Bible.

"I agree. (And I'm sure He doesn't APPROVE of Christians overstepping their position/authority and persecuting gay people as they wantonly do... even in His name.)"

How am I persecuting homosexuals, anyone for that matter? I am simply stating what God says in the Bible. You don't like it…so you bash me…for not caving in and calling sex sin…nothing. Where is your tolerance and acceptance of my views and opinions? He commands us whether you like it or not…..to stand on the Word. So what you or anyone else says….does not matter one bit. If your views are different than Gods…then I believe you are wrong…I am standing with God. And God spells out perfectly what sin is. Is murder a sin? Sure it is. Why aren't you telling me that I am narrow-minded for believing that it is? You are picking this sex issue out of all sin…and trying to make it ok. It is not.

"And no straight religious person gets to make laws that ALL Americans must abide. There is a CRITICAL balance represented there."

AS I said…..all sex outside marriage is sin. In America we have never embraced same sex marriage…never. Why? Look to our historical beginnings…I think it has to do with Christianity.

"I just did. You and those who believe as you do, CAN believe as you do; you CANNOT and WILL NOT IMPOSE that belief upon all other Americans. Get it?! (I hope so.)"

But Americans are voting same sex marriage down. America wants marriage to be…one man and one woman. Our churches should be able to stand on the Word…without people, outsiders coming in and FORCING THEM TO SWALLOW THINGS THAT ARE SINFUL. You just can't accept the will of the people.

"I am only tolerant to a certain degree; pretty much the same as you and those who believe as you do. In other words, don't be shocked when people fight you for EQUAL rights and protections under this nation's Constitution. For they WILL DO THAT."

And that is fine. Just don't come into the church and try to silence us or force us to accept even what society says is normal and right.

Perriquine said,

"When I was a believer, I did repent actions that I considered to be sinful."

That is what God commands we do.

"Can you accept that some believers differ in their beliefs though about what is or isn't sinful? Do you think the power to judge sin is God's alone? Or do you think it's your place to judge something as sinful and that the only power reserved to God in the matter is how that sin will be judged in the final reckoning of a person's life?"

No. God tells us what is sin and what isn't. No negotiating this. God judges our hearts…we can't even judge our own. But God says that we have the right to make righteous judgement especially on our Christian brothers and sisters words and actions. You are judging me here in this conversation. Do you have that right? Sure you do, if you are a believer…and if I as a Christian am wrong..then tell me that I am. If we did not judge we could not protect our families…or live safely. Jesus talked about sin and hell more than he did about heaven. He must have thought that sin was pretty bad…and it is. Sin is missing the mark that God sets. And He is clear about what sin is…in His Word.

"But is it your place to think that you know when others are sinning?"

Unless someone is hiding…it is not hard to tell if they are sinning. There is not a time when someone uses the Lords name in vain that it does not pierce my heart. I have seem people lie….have seen people stealing….and lusting…etc. It is sin. If you know the Word it convicts you. If you want the scriptures where God says we can judge…I would be happy to post them.

""Gays" don't have 'hive mind'. It is absolutely ridiculous to talk about us as if we had some blanket policy on the matter that we all subscribe to. You reveal a considerable bias when you ask people to make these kinds of generalizations, as if you're incapable of seeing us as individuals, each with their own independent set of beliefs."

I do not hate gays…my uncle is gay. This isn't about love…its about standing on the Word and loving people enough to tell them kindly that they are sinning. I am talking about believers judging believers…not unbelievers. They do not know better because they each have their own different set of morals. I have had several people show me my sin…and I thank them for it. I am not asking anyone to ascribe to what I say. I am sharing the Word.
If you are not a believer…then anything goes…as far as morals go. If you are then its not about you…or what you want…its about God and His plan.

"I won't presume to speak for other "gays". I think I've already made my position on the issue sufficiently clear."

As I have also…share what God says in scriptures.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

...I meant to say…they have never had to come out.

Of course not. Most people (sinner or not) are accepted by Christians. Funny that gay people are so maligned by those who be accepting them the most.

Our church stands on the Word.

If you say so; I won't dispute that and couldn't change you mind anyway.

And the Word says…that God did NOT INTEND COUPLES TO DIVORCE.

Yes, that is what I believe also.

God set boundaries on divorce. But today…that too is poo poo'd and people accept it like other immoral things.

Still, even today I don't know many people who think that divorce is a 'good' thing (with few exceptions). Yet, these people would not be particularly SHUNNED by Christians as many have been taught to do to homosexuals. It's a disgusting form of favoritism which illustrates the religious hypocrisy I never ever want to be subjected to again or be a part of. God HELP ME, to stay clear of that disheartening and depressing environment. It just saddens me.

That does not mean it is right.

I know. And many besides myself do. But the difference is that MOST Christians have NOT been conditioned, taught, indoctrinated to vilify and BEAT DOWN other sinners; while when it comes to homosexuality, the VILE fear, hatred and traditional persecutions toward homosexuals are seemingly JUSTIFIED via the Christianity itself. Just the way people TREAT and TALK about homosexuals, is enough to turn my stomach... you can cut the darkness with a knife, every time.

BAck in my parents day….it was humiliating to get a divorce…

And in Moses' time, fornicators and disobedient children were put to death. I know divorce is not good and even as a 'homosexual' Christian, I know that many Christians reject "homosexuality" (sometimes the being gay, and other times both behaving and being gay). What I cannot stand (anymore), is people embracing the wretched notion that they are somehow justified in being MORE harsh toward those people who offend them in THAT way.

This EXTRA-HATRED of "homosexuality" as opposed to other "sins", isn't (IMO) something that Jesus Christ would have approved of (based upon HOW He approached and dealt with those who were clearly sinners, in many different circumstances). Gay people are simply DOGGED beyond belief. I'm tired of seeing Christians blow that off.

...out of the question having a child out of wedlock.

Yep. That was shunned. I remember.

Now its hip to do both…but not in Gods eyes.

Of course not. But there came a time where people like that were embraced and helped by others; not rejected as outcasts (as homosexuals STILL are).

They have every right to try to convince people about their position. But…they do not have every right to force my Church into marrying them.

And that isn't what most gay people are seeking. Gay want LEGAL marriage, not to force churches to 'marry' them.

They do not have every right to stop free speech against their lifestyle.

But we do have every right to FIGHT BACK on the intellectual, political, philosophical and legal battlefield. Why? Because we are human beings (equals). We know an argument and an effort to resist being dehumanized exists; and that is enough to motivate us to action.

And that is what the Hate Crimes Bill will do….silent Christians and Churches.

Prove that will happen. I don't know how you get there will a "hate crimes" statute. Then again, what is it that should be allowed in your mind, what others might view as being "criminal"?

Today gays are accepted like never before.

Why not?! We are HUMAN beings. Hey... OTHER human beings are accepted... why not US??!!

They are on television with their own shows…they are in movies…they have high powered jobs.

But that doesn't mean there are other obstacles to reasonable equality and protections under the law. It isn't people's fault that they are "gay"... yet people (especially MANY Christians) treat us as if we deserve something more harsh, brutal or severe as human beings... just because we are "homosexual". I'm tired of people using Jesus' name... to justify that kind of BIGOTRY!! I used to be 'quiet'... but the HATRED just kept on coming; I was foolish enough to think that most Christians would do better (over 30+ years).

It is not like it used to be.

Things change. Some things we want to stay the same, others we expect to change. That's what human beings do. God may certainly NOT change... but this world He set in-motion surely does. I'm not going to pretend to understand anything perfectly.

They will not be happy until society accepts their lifestyle as normal.

You are wrong about that. But rather than tell you why, I'll let you hunt to why I just responded as I did. I WILL tell you that what you said is based upon a massive assumption.

Tolerance is not enough, its acceptance or nothing else.

Do you really think people (Christians in-particular) are all that 'tolerant' of homosexual people? Have you lived in America lately? Come on.

I am talking about IN THE CHURCHES. They do not want pastors to preach against what they are doing.

I know better than to step near any Christian (or other church) which is bent upon vilifying homosexual people in-particular. I've attended them, I've heard the pastors and endured the rejection. Unless a miracle happens, I'm NOT EVER going back into any church building (with perhaps the exception of 'weddings' and 'funerals'). The fear, hatred and rejection communicated about homosexuality in many churches, is more than a human being should have to bear.

They want them silenced…and many want the Bible declared as hate speech.

I wouldn't advocate for that, but i can see how many might WANT that. Still, can you show how your fears/concerns might actually be 'realized'?

Homosexual sex is sin. We are all sinners.

I don't believe that homosexual sex is 'sin', but I can accept that other people do. I just don't want to be BEAT DOWN spiritually (or even physically), just because of the same. That is, is you are going to come down on ME (and other "homosexuals"), why not OTHER "sinners" (and equally so). How about putting some fire/brimstone (much more frequently) upon the greedy, power-mongers in finance and government??!! (It's WAY TOO OFTEN the "gays" that get the worst; I'm not going to endure that again.)

Do you think their is pride outside the Christian Church or do you give all nonbelievers a pat on the back?

People are people. Whether homosexual or heterosexual, they are flawed. We never have to condone sin, but compassion, mercy and grace (in the abundance it was shown to us without repentance, through Christ) OUGHT to be what we are willing to AFFORD others.

All you are going to see in this world are SINNERS; people who have sinned each and every day.

God will show His wrath especially on nonbelievers.

Sorry, I really don't believe that. But I DO think/believe that those who have been shown the love of Christ (unto Salvation), should practice that in dealing with others. What I'm saying is what too many Christians are so very HARD on homosexual PEOPLE particularly. I fear that Christians are inadvertently justifying the abject hatred that many homosexual people endure in this society. And guess what??!! It will never make things better for anyone. It is just plain negativity and darkness. It hurts people on all sides of the situations which exist.

Again, no one has to accept that "sin" is 'okay'... but they MUST realize that lording 'righteousness' over people (when you're flawed yourself) will likely never work out for what is truly good.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

Everyone will be judged by their actions and words. No excuses will He hear.

But what He know that we cannot ever know... is the FULL (total) story of the person being judged. Too many people forget to consider that.

What is hypocritical that I have said? You don't think I stand on the Word?

I'm NOT going to judge you; it isn't my place. But I can tell you how I feel about what say you believe and advocate. I'm not out to GET you; this is after all just an internet forum. And as adamant as I can be... I do think/believe God reads my heart. So, I don't direct my most negative emotions toward anyone here... but i do lay them out for all to touch or feel... if they will. Then I just pray that someone understands 'something' (at least).

This comment shows exactly what I mean.

Okay.

Your statement shows that you are not tolerant and you want people shut up and locked up.

I think people feel many things strongly. But I for one, would not advocate hurting others; I've endured enough pain myself.

If I had said…all homosexuals should be locked up…you would have been on my case….but tolerant you are NOT.

I don't think many should expect loads of tolerance from the homosexual community (due to many being literally and continually oppressed), but some of us do indeed care about others... especially those of us who have been life-long believers in Christ.

I suppose I've been hurt enough times, that I do have somewhat of a reflex to FIGHT BACK. But I try to direct that in a more philosophical way; I really don't want to hurt people by making things completely personal. I think that everyone has endured enough 'pain' in this world. Sometimes I do become what I despise, and I do hurt people's feelings; but in my right mind that is never my purpose as a man.

What is disgusting? Following Gods Word is disgusting?

What I think is disgusting, is that people throw the "Word" out there, as if that is all they need to do. They set off effects which can devastate people, but don't really stick around to share in the PAIN they dish out. They know they did something, but I don't think they know what. So, while it is not necessarily "disgusting" for people to share what they believe, I DO despise the way so many within "Christian" culture do the spiritual equivalent of spiritual drive-by's; devastating souls and then getting the heck out of Dodge. I hate that kind of approach to homosexuality. After all, I don't see anything so drastic done with most other sins.

Sin is sin…I never said that homosexual or heterosexual sin is worse than any other sin. All sin….misses the mark that God sets for us.

I know what you mean. Still, have you noticed how people people tend to treat homosexuals? (I have.) It is just horrible. Thing aren't all peaches and cream.

Jesus is One with the Father.

I can buy that belief.

He backs up the Genesis account of creation.

The problem is that too many believers JUDGE others... AS IF they think they are "Jesus" or "God". THAT is the problem.

God said….marriage is between ONE WOMAN AND ONE MAN.

That isn't the only definition illustrated in the Bible. By the same token, how did Jesus handle those people in His society who were "homosexual"? What kinds of things did He say or would He have said to them? How would Jesus literally TREAT homosexual men and women.

(And knowing human beings as we do now... we KNOW Jesus surely encountered homosexual people.) How did/would Jesus MINISTER to "homosexual" people?

I know you don't have answers to all of that (I don't either), but I can consider how I know that Jesus treated people affected by sin. So many "Christians" today are NOTHING like that.

God said all sex…..DID YOU GET THIS?…..ALL SEX….OUTSIDE MARRIAGE IS SIN.

Okay. I don't believe that. But I do believe that people should care about and be decent with those they have sexual relations.

This has all come to light because of many high profile things going on in the country….the Hate Crimes Laws and same sex marriage. It is being voted on state by state. And in most states it has been turned down. Only overruled by liberal judges…one who is gay. No bias was there…

Well, homosexual people have been and are seriously discriminated against; that is proven. We cannot just ignore that. In due time, laws will reflect the same.

How are homosexuals being treated harshly?

Please, pay attention to what's going on in this society. It is nothing new and the persecution that homosexual people hasn't ended; it is common (even now). I don't want to debate that, it is obvious today. There is more acceptance of homosexuality in the mainstream, but discrimination and violence against gays isn't 'rare'.

Why would Jesus condone homosexuality and not other sins?

What did Jesus say about treatment of "sinners"? (Of course Jesus spoke against "sin".) I think my question is something that MANY CHRISTIANS need to consider DEEP within themselves.

Do you think Jesus would say…adultery is ok?

No.

Abortion?

No. (But what could/would He have said about that?)

Child Pornography?

I don't know that is addressed at all. I don't approve of it, that's for sure.

Why? Because if there is consumption of such a 'product', there will surely be a DEMAND for production of the same. We all know that would promote further victimization of children, and any one of us whose minds are equipped with empathy... realize that putting a child through abuse of ANY type, is horrible and evil period. Just caring for others (something I got from Jesus, IMO) tells me that victimizing anyone (especially children) is wrong.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

Rape?

That also leads to there being a victim. Jesus would not approve. (See the above.)

Show me one scripture in the entire Bible…where God condones sex outside marriage?

Show me one passage of Scripture where Jesus says that being "homosexual" is wrong. But no, I really don't care to argue the "Bible"; people interpret a lot of different things from that book.

Show me one, just one gay marriage?

There are many things people pull from the Bible (or not). I've heard various theologians justify and dispute scores of views. I really don't argue what the Bible says much anymore.

Then explain why that in both OT and NT that people who went against his Word…by having sex in the ways He said were wrong…….are all over the Bible.

You have to address your own convictions... the Bible speaks differently to many people.

How am I persecuting homosexuals, anyone for that matter? I am simply stating what God says in the Bible.

You may have the "Bible" backing you in your mind, but you CAN indeed 'persecute' another, nevertheless. That is reality.

You don't like it…so you bash me…for not caving in and calling sex sin…nothing.

If you had sex sin in your life, I would talk to you about it and discourage you from it. I would NOT condemn you. I don't think it is my place to 'fix' you.

Where is your tolerance and acceptance of my views and opinions?

I try; but I don't promise I'm going to take dehumanization of myself or other homosexual people 'kindly'. I would warn anyone, that I've been hurt deeply and for a very long time about being "gay". So, if I find it VERY difficult to "tolerate" anything I perceive as being spiritually-hostile or socially hostile... I'm likely going to be "defensive" in some fashion commensurate with the same.

He commands us whether you like it or not…..to stand on the Word.

And how you "stand", isn't going to be how every other Christian does; that is reality.

So what you or anyone else says….does not matter one bit.

And that is why your faith, will suit you as it does. It won't be everyone else's faith.

If your views are different than Gods…then I believe you are wrong…I am standing with God.

Okay. I understand that people with the deepest of beliefs and faith, will often 'disagree'. May God's (the Creator) grace be upon us all.

And God spells out perfectly what sin is.

That is what you believe. But I'm sure that what someone else calls sin, may not be sin to you (and vise versa).

Is murder a sin? Sure it is.

Okay. Now... define "murder". Is it murder by God's definition or what YOU perceive (by what you've been taught or somehow learned)? Really, it isn't all as clear as you've probably been told.

Why aren't you telling me that I am narrow-minded for believing that it is? You are picking this sex issue out of all sin…and trying to make it ok. It is not.

We believe differently and have experienced different things. I know that arguing the Bible and morality has it logical limits; so disputes about the same are perpetual.

AS I said…..all sex outside marriage is sin.

That's what you believe the Bible says, and that is what you say to others. Is that what God actually says to all human beings? I don't see a need to argue that (not anymore).

In America we have never embraced same sex marriage…never. Why? Look to our historical beginnings…I think it has to do with Christianity.

Now, I can see YOU holding to that. But the LAWS which govern everyone, need not adhere specifically to traditions or your personal moral values.

I would like to see where that pastor garnered his justifications for his position... but I have little doubt that he thought it through as well as most or any posting here in this forum. I'll make a point of looking into is position theologically again; this time with more thought dedicated to the task.

But Americans are voting same sex marriage down.

And it is wrong to put people's rights up for a cote, in America. It will probably go to the Supreme Court... AND gay people will NOT stop fighting for the gay marriage, until secular law (what we all live under) becomes consistent with the U.S. Constitution.

America wants marriage to be…one man and one woman.

That isn't correct. And this laws concerning people's rights, aren't determined via popular vote. Gay marriage will eventually be legal and recognized in all 50 states (it is just a matter of time).

Our churches should be able to stand on the Word…

Whatever that really means... to hundreds of MILLIONS of people. It's not as absolute a concept as you've likely been taught. Still, you have a right to your religious beliefs.

...without people, outsiders coming in and FORCING THEM TO SWALLOW THINGS THAT ARE SINFUL. You just can't accept the will of the people.

Neither did Black slaves and multiple states "accept the will of the people". Try to define my rights by popular vote, and expect me to come back for a rematch... even over the course of many lifetimes. This isn't about just us, but humanity itself. Gay people aren't going to disappear from Earth... unless God makes it so. So far, we're STILL here.

And that is fine. Just don't come into the church and try to silence us or force us to accept even what society says is normal and right.

Of course. It isn't my intention to FORCE anything on you; but and score of others WILL fight for equality under the laws of this land.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

But…they do not have every right to force my Church into marrying them. They do not have every right to stop free speech against their lifestyle.

So you're convinced that gay people are conspiring to force your Church into marrying same-sex couples? If not, why so much fear? God is not the author of fear, you know.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

And that is what the Hate Crimes Bill will do….silent Christians and Churches.

You do realize it was already passed and signed into law a couple of years ago, right? How will this law accomplish what you propose? Have you read it?

Do you not understand that targeting someone based on perceptions about their religious beliefs is also covered by hate crime law? Or that it covers heterosexuals targeted for perceptions about their heterosexuality as well? It's not a law that gives special protection to 'heathen gays'.

And I'm not even a fan of hate crime law anyway. Still, I'm not going to go around telling lies about what the law will do.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

Today gays are accepted like never before. They are on television with their own shows…they are in movies…they have high powered jobs. It is not like it used to be. They will not be happy until society accepts their lifestyle as normal. Tolerance is not enough, its acceptance or nothing else.

Which is why we still have people killing themselves after intense bullying for being perceived as gay. There was a gay bashing in the city where I work - a city considered very liberal - just this week. Wow, that acceptance thing is really working for us, isn't it?

Sure, it would be nice if everyone accepted each others' differences and we were all allowed to live our lives in peace, but I'm not so naive as to think that such a thing is even remotely possible.

Interesting words, tolerance and acceptance. I find it interesting that you think gay people should not be accepted by the society they live in. That really says a lot. For starters, it actually tells us that you don't think we should be tolerated either, since you can't have tolerance without acceptance of another's right to exist and conform their lives around their own beliefs.

And when did you become some kind of authority on what gay people think, want, believe, etc.? I'm here to tell you that you're not. Not by a longshot.

Maybe next time try asking us what we think instead of telling us. Never amusing when some straight person thinks they know more about gay people (and me personally by extension) than gay people themselves do.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

I am talking about IN THE CHURCHES. They do not want pastors to preach against what they are doing. They want them silenced…and many want the Bible declared as hate speech.

"They this, they that". I don't care what believers believe or what their pastors preach - or at least I wouldn't if there weren't so many of them who are politically organized and trying with some measure of success to impose those beliefs on the rest of society through our shared laws. But I don't want preachers silenced, nor do I want the Bible declared as hate speech. The Bible is not the problem. It's hateful people using it to promote a personal agenda that is the problem. I come from a Christian family, and was once a believer myself. So I'm quite convinced that most people of faith aren't bigots suggesting that we pen up gay people in the desert behind an electrified fence or suggesting that the government should kill us.

HOWEVER, if you think I'm not going to be critical of preachers who say such things, you're dead wrong. Just because it was said in a church, that doesn't somehow make it off limits. To be clear - those preachers have the right to say and believe those things, and I would oppose any attempt by government to interfere with that right. But that doesn't mean I'm going to give up my right to speak freely in criticism of such things. Being religious doesn't privilege anyone's speech to the point of requiring others to be silent in their opposition.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

God will show His wrath especially on nonbelievers. Everyone will be judged by their actions and words. No excuses will He hear.

Blah, blah, blah. I've had more than enough fire and brimstone preached at me to last me a lifetime. I'm not scared of you or your God.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

Only overruled by liberal judges…one who is gay. No bias was there…

...because all gay people are biased in everything that they do, I suppose. Don't think that just because you don't complete the sentence that we're incapable of understanding what's behind it.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

I am simply stating what God says in the Bible.

What you believe God says via the Bible. Those of us who don't share your beliefs are entitled to our own.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

Where is your tolerance and acceptance of my views and opinions?

Like I said in my other post - our acceptance and tolerance of your right to espouse such views doesn't require us to accord those views with respect or withhold our opinions.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

He commands us whether you like it or not…..to stand on the Word.

So you believe. I do not. Throwing a tantrum won't turn me into a believer again, and I rather doubt it will persuade anyone else, either.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

So what you or anyone else says….does not matter one bit.

The feeling is mutual - which is apparently what you can't stand.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

America wants marriage to be…one man and one woman.

Translation: if you don't agree with this position, then you can't call yourself part of America.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

And that is fine. Just don't come into the church and try to silence us or force us to accept even what society says is normal and right.

Trouble is, you won't keep your church in your church and out of our government. That is why you're getting pushback. Some of us are sick of dominionists thinking they own the country and control the rest of us.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

No. God tells us what is sin and what isn't. No negotiating this. God judges our hearts…we can't even judge our own. But God says that we have the right to make righteous judgement especially on our Christian brothers and sisters words and actions. You are judging me here in this conversation. Do you have that right? Sure you do, if you are a believer…and if I as a Christian am wrong..then tell me that I am. If we did not judge we could not protect our families…or live safely. Jesus talked about sin and hell more than he did about heaven. He must have thought that sin was pretty bad…and it is. Sin is missing the mark that God sets. And He is clear about what sin is…in His Word.

Missing the point. Believers don't all believe the same thing. You are telling us that you can't tolerate anyone holding a different belief about sin from what you believe about, and trying to hide behind the "I didn't say it, God did" schtick. People have disagreements about what God is alleged to have said - it's part of why there are so many Protestant denominations within Christianity.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

Unless someone is hiding…it is not hard to tell if they are sinning. There is not a time when someone uses the Lords name in vain that it does not pierce my heart. I have seem people lie….have seen people stealing….and lusting…etc. It is sin. If you know the Word it convicts you. If you want the scriptures where God says we can judge…I would be happy to post them.

Don't need them. You've clearly decided that you are judge and jury of everyone else's sins. One wonders why you need God to exist, that being so.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

I do not hate gays…my uncle is gay.

Your uncle being gay does not give you a free pass. It is not evidence that you don't hate "gays".

Originally Posted by churchmouse

This isn't about love…

Well, that much is beyond clear.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

its about standing on the Word and loving people enough to tell them kindly that they are sinning.

I do not find you to be kind.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

I am talking about believers judging believers…not unbelievers.

I'm am not fooled by this. I find that many believers are all too happy to pass judgment on non-believers.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

I am not asking anyone to ascribe to what I say. I am sharing the Word.

Hilarious. You are selling something, and I'm not buying.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

If you are not a believer…then anything goes…as far as morals go.

That is an utter falsehood. Just because someone doesn't believe in your God, that does not mean they hold a philosophy of "anything goes". You continue to reveal your considerable prejudice toward others who do not think and believe as you do.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

If you are then its not about you…or what you want…its about God and His plan.

Because I don't matter to you - I am just an annoyance, getting in your way.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

Divorced people have never come out of the closet. Gays have made this a front and center issue. And now they are attacking the churches and demanding that they be treated equal….that their actions should be excused not only by the Church but by God. That will never happen.

My pastor says if this happens to our church (and we are preparing for this day when it does) and the government forces us to accept sinful behavior by marrying gays…the congregation will rip….brick by brick dismantling the church until it collapses. We will then meet in peoples homes. God first……

It is time that gays accept that their behavior if they are having sex…is sinful. It is no different than any other sin. This thread is about this topic…if it were about prostitution, or stealing…or divorce then I would be just as vocal on it. Sin is sin…and God is the opposite of sin…He is Holy. All sex outside marriage is sin. No gay, no government…will tell me or make me believe differently. Why don't you people accept that? ARent you tolerant of others views?

You are missing the point churchmouse completely! It doesn't matter what sins you identify and who they are associated with. A sin is a sin. You have admitted that you are a perpetual sinner, which means that you are no better than a gay person, if in Gods eyes homosexuality were considered to be a sin. At what stage do Christians realise that their sins are sin, whatever they may be. This is just a crazy argument.

Originally Posted by truthvigilante

You are missing the point churchmouse completely! It doesn't matter what sins you identify and who they are associated with. A sin is a sin. You have admitted that you are a perpetual sinner, which means that you are no better than a gay person, if in Gods eyes homosexuality were considered to be a sin. At what stage do Christians realise that their sins are sin, whatever they may be. This is just a crazy argument.

Absolutely great points!! Amen!!

We seem to have some especially devout members of the Church of Christ the Bigot. They seem to have memorized the Gospel of Puke, in which Christ's hatred of strangers and minorities is made clear