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Thread: Gun Control's Actual Results!

  1. #1
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    Default Gun Control's Actual Results!

    http://reason.com/archives/2002/11/0...wisted-outcome

    Britain has become more crime ridden as a result, Australia as well.

    Guncontrol does not work anywhere it has been tried!!!

  2. Default

    IBantigunfolk. This doesn't really surprise me, but I was looking for sources of the crime statistics in the article. I couldn't find any.
    Quote Originally Posted by webrockk View Post
    Inselaffen subjects still refer to the US as "the colonies".

  3. #3
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    http://rense.com/general/failure.htm

    http://brillianter.com/2008/11/briti...ntrol-failure/

    http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2010/0...killing-spree/

    There are plenty more

    - - - Updated - - -

    http://rense.com/general/failure.htm

    http://brillianter.com/2008/11/british-gun-control-failure/

    http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2010/06/04/british-gun-control-fails-as-37-people-are-shot-in-a-murder-suicide-killing-spree/

    There are plenty more

  4. Default

    Your claim about Australia being crime-ridden is not accurate. So any claim towards suggesting more stringent firearms control laws since 1996 have contributed to an increase in crime which would be described as the country being "crime-ridden" is also not accurate. As for the Brits, I'm sure they can explain the way they measure crime is vastly different from the way crime is measured throughout the US which makes comparisons difficult if not impossible.

  5. #5
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    Yeah? I'm just not buying what you're selling!

    Quote Originally Posted by Diuretic View Post
    Your claim about Australia being crime-ridden is not accurate. So any claim towards suggesting more stringent firearms control laws since 1996 have contributed to an increase in crime which would be described as the country being "crime-ridden" is also not accurate. As for the Brits, I'm sure they can explain the way they measure crime is vastly different from the way crime is measured throughout the US which makes comparisons difficult if not impossible.

  6. Likes Small Town Guy liked this post
  7. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Diuretic View Post
    Your claim about Australia being crime-ridden is not accurate. So any claim towards suggesting more stringent firearms control laws since 1996 have contributed to an increase in crime which would be described as the country being "crime-ridden" is also not accurate. As for the Brits, I'm sure they can explain the way they measure crime is vastly different from the way crime is measured throughout the US which makes comparisons difficult if not impossible.
    Well, shall we look at your claim in the light of day:

    Rape victims (most recent) by country

    # 1 New Zealand: 1.3%
    # 2 Austria: 1.2%
    = 3 Sweden: 1.1%
    = 3 Finland: 1.1%
    # 5 Australia: 1%
    # 6 United Kingdom: 0.9%
    = 7 Netherlands: 0.8%
    = 7 Slovenia: 0.8%
    = 7 Canada: 0.8%
    # 10 France: 0.7%
    = 11 Italy: 0.6%
    = 11 Switzerland: 0.6%
    = 13 Denmark: 0.4%
    = 13 United States: 0.4%

    It would seem that Australia is number 5 in Rape Crimes.

    Assault victims (most recent) by country:

    # 1 Saint Kitts and Nevis: 3%
    # 2 United Kingdom: 2.8%
    = 3 New Zealand: 2.4%
    = 3 Australia: 2.4%
    # 5 Canada: 2.3%
    # 6 Finland: 2.1%
    = 7 France: 1.4%
    = 7 Denmark: 1.4%
    = 9 Sweden: 1.2%
    = 9 United States: 1.2%

    And Australia did better in assaults, coming in at number 3.


    Drug offenses (most recent) by country

    # 1 Germany: 250,969 per 100,000 people
    # 2 United Kingdom: 183,419 per 100,000 people
    # 3 Canada: 92,590 per 100,000 people
    # 4 South Africa: 53,810 per 100,000 people
    # 5 Switzerland: 49,201 per 100,000 people
    # 6 Belgium: 40,856 per 100,000 people


    # 40 Latvia: 629 per 100,000 people
    # 41 United States: 560.1 per 100,000 people

    Australia didn't make the list but look at who's in number 2 and 3 spots.


    Then we have "software" crimes;

    # 93 Norway: 29%
    = 94 Australia: 28%
    = 94 Netherlands: 28%
    # 96 Germany: 27%
    # 97 United Kingdom: 26%
    = 98 Switzerland: 25%
    = 98 Finland: 25%
    = 98 Belgium: 25%
    = 98 Denmark: 25%
    = 98 Sweden: 25%
    = 98 Austria: 25%
    # 104 Japan: 23%
    # 105 New Zealand: 22%
    # 106 Luxembourg: 21%
    # 107 United States: 20%

    So let's take a look and see who has the most total crime victims (most recent) by country;

    # 1 Australia: 30.1%
    # 2 New Zealand: 29.4%
    # 3 United Kingdom: 26.4%
    # 4 Netherlands: 25.2%
    # 5 Sweden: 24.7%
    # 6 Italy: 24.6%
    # 7 Canada: 23.8%
    # 8 Saint Kitts and Nevis: 23.2%
    # 9 Malta: 23.1%
    # 10 Denmark: 23%
    # 11 Poland: 22.7%
    = 12 Belgium: 21.4%
    = 12 France: 21.4%
    # 14 Slovenia: 21.2%
    # 15 United States: 21.1%


    And you want to sit there and defend Australia's crime victim record??

  8. Likes Whaler17 liked this post
  9. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    Well, shall we look at your claim in the light of day:

    Rape victims (most recent) by country

    # 1 New Zealand: 1.3%
    # 2 Austria: 1.2%
    = 3 Sweden: 1.1%
    = 3 Finland: 1.1%
    # 5 Australia: 1%
    # 6 United Kingdom: 0.9%
    = 7 Netherlands: 0.8%
    = 7 Slovenia: 0.8%
    = 7 Canada: 0.8%
    # 10 France: 0.7%
    = 11 Italy: 0.6%
    = 11 Switzerland: 0.6%
    = 13 Denmark: 0.4%
    = 13 United States: 0.4%

    It would seem that Australia is number 5 in Rape Crimes.

    Assault victims (most recent) by country:

    # 1 Saint Kitts and Nevis: 3%
    # 2 United Kingdom: 2.8%
    = 3 New Zealand: 2.4%
    = 3 Australia: 2.4%
    # 5 Canada: 2.3%
    # 6 Finland: 2.1%
    = 7 France: 1.4%
    = 7 Denmark: 1.4%
    = 9 Sweden: 1.2%
    = 9 United States: 1.2%

    And Australia did better in assaults, coming in at number 3.


    Drug offenses (most recent) by country

    # 1 Germany: 250,969 per 100,000 people
    # 2 United Kingdom: 183,419 per 100,000 people
    # 3 Canada: 92,590 per 100,000 people
    # 4 South Africa: 53,810 per 100,000 people
    # 5 Switzerland: 49,201 per 100,000 people
    # 6 Belgium: 40,856 per 100,000 people


    # 40 Latvia: 629 per 100,000 people
    # 41 United States: 560.1 per 100,000 people

    Australia didn't make the list but look at who's in number 2 and 3 spots.


    Then we have "software" crimes;

    # 93 Norway: 29%
    = 94 Australia: 28%
    = 94 Netherlands: 28%
    # 96 Germany: 27%
    # 97 United Kingdom: 26%
    = 98 Switzerland: 25%
    = 98 Finland: 25%
    = 98 Belgium: 25%
    = 98 Denmark: 25%
    = 98 Sweden: 25%
    = 98 Austria: 25%
    # 104 Japan: 23%
    # 105 New Zealand: 22%
    # 106 Luxembourg: 21%
    # 107 United States: 20%

    So let's take a look and see who has the most total crime victims (most recent) by country;

    # 1 Australia: 30.1%
    # 2 New Zealand: 29.4%
    # 3 United Kingdom: 26.4%
    # 4 Netherlands: 25.2%
    # 5 Sweden: 24.7%
    # 6 Italy: 24.6%
    # 7 Canada: 23.8%
    # 8 Saint Kitts and Nevis: 23.2%
    # 9 Malta: 23.1%
    # 10 Denmark: 23%
    # 11 Poland: 22.7%
    = 12 Belgium: 21.4%
    = 12 France: 21.4%
    # 14 Slovenia: 21.2%
    # 15 United States: 21.1%


    And you want to sit there and defend Australia's crime victim record??
    Quite frankly....I understand and get your post, Thanks
    Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self defense."
    - John Adams

    There is no such thing as a bad gun. A bad man with a gun is very dangerous. A good man with a gun is very dangerous to the bad man.

    We're all in favor of reducing violent crime. It's just that pro-gunners have a method that is proven effective. Anti-gunners don't.

  10. Default

    This could be an excellent opportunity to sort out some erroneous views about crime, crime reporting and relative crime between countries. I hope so anyway.

    But first, let me sum up to this point. Whaler 17 made the point "Britain has become more crime ridden as a result, Australia as well." As a result of what? As a result of "gun control" apparently. Since Australia has had fairly stringent firearms control laws for many, many years, it makes the claim fatuous. What makes it even more fatuous is the implication that having lax firearms control laws actually controls crime. That will be news to the many researchers who try to discover the root causes of crime.

    In response I posted,"Your claim about Australia being crime-ridden is not accurate. So any claim towards suggesting more stringent firearms control laws since 1996 have contributed to an increase in crime which would be described as the country being "crime-ridden" is also not accurate. As for the Brits, I'm sure they can explain the way they measure crime is vastly different from the way crime is measured throughout the US which makes comparisons difficult if not impossible."

    Now here I came up with a couple of claims myself. One is to deny that Australia is "crime-ridden". That goes to a description about crime in Australia. Nowhere did I say it was "low", "high" or "average" in comparison to other nations. Nor did I say it doesn't exist. But I did say Australia is not "crime-ridden" and I will defend that if the thread continues.

    beenthere listed some treated statistics without a link to the source. Since I can't view the source for myself I can't take any notice of those statistics.

    Now before we continue, let's look at crime reporting. The definitions of crimes and how they are reported is going to differ from country to country. They will even differ inside a country. The US is a good example, as is Australia. The UK with its more national approach (Scotland has its own legal system and Northern Ireland has its separate system from England and Wales) is probably more uniform in reporting. Despite Australia having a small population of 23m we have 7 State/Territory criminal justice systems and one Federal justice system all of which measure different crimes in different ways (if you think that's dumb then you'd really get a chuckle out of how we developed our railways). We do have the excellent Australian Institute of Criminology though and that helps a lot.

    The website is here - http://www.aic.gov.au/ - and I would urge anyone interested in getting a true picture of crime in Australia to visit the site and read the materials.

    I look forward to continuing the discussion.

  11. #9
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    Blah Blah Blah,

    Well it is fairly obvious that the strict gun controls have not had the effect of reducing crime. You have to admit that much is indisputable given the statistics above.

    go ahead, continue the discussion. Tell me how these laws were SO effective when your crime rates are sunstantially higher than the U.S. with relatively lax gun control.

    At a minimum, you have to admit that comparing the U.S. and what effect some gun control law may have here to what has happened in Australia is nonsense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Diuretic View Post
    This could be an excellent opportunity to sort out some erroneous views about crime, crime reporting and relative crime between countries. I hope so anyway.

    But first, let me sum up to this point. Whaler 17 made the point "Britain has become more crime ridden as a result, Australia as well." As a result of what? As a result of "gun control" apparently. Since Australia has had fairly stringent firearms control laws for many, many years, it makes the claim fatuous. What makes it even more fatuous is the implication that having lax firearms control laws actually controls crime. That will be news to the many researchers who try to discover the root causes of crime.

    In response I posted,"Your claim about Australia being crime-ridden is not accurate. So any claim towards suggesting more stringent firearms control laws since 1996 have contributed to an increase in crime which would be described as the country being "crime-ridden" is also not accurate. As for the Brits, I'm sure they can explain the way they measure crime is vastly different from the way crime is measured throughout the US which makes comparisons difficult if not impossible."

    Now here I came up with a couple of claims myself. One is to deny that Australia is "crime-ridden". That goes to a description about crime in Australia. Nowhere did I say it was "low", "high" or "average" in comparison to other nations. Nor did I say it doesn't exist. But I did say Australia is not "crime-ridden" and I will defend that if the thread continues.

    beenthere listed some treated statistics without a link to the source. Since I can't view the source for myself I can't take any notice of those statistics.

    Now before we continue, let's look at crime reporting. The definitions of crimes and how they are reported is going to differ from country to country. They will even differ inside a country. The US is a good example, as is Australia. The UK with its more national approach (Scotland has its own legal system and Northern Ireland has its separate system from England and Wales) is probably more uniform in reporting. Despite Australia having a small population of 23m we have 7 State/Territory criminal justice systems and one Federal justice system all of which measure different crimes in different ways (if you think that's dumb then you'd really get a chuckle out of how we developed our railways). We do have the excellent Australian Institute of Criminology though and that helps a lot.

    The website is here - http://www.aic.gov.au/ - and I would urge anyone interested in getting a true picture of crime in Australia to visit the site and read the materials.

    I look forward to continuing the discussion.
    Last edited by Whaler17; May 02 2013 at 03:23 PM.

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  13. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Whaler17 View Post
    Blah Blah Blah,

    Well it is fairly obvious that the strict gun controls have not had the effect of reducing crime. You have to admit that much is indisputable given the statistics above.

    go ahead, continue the discussion. Tell me how these laws were SO effective when your crime rates are sunstantially higher than the U.S. with relatively lax gun control.

    At a minimum, you have to admit that comparing the U.S. and what effect some gun control law may have here to what has happened in Australia is nonsense.
    You're confused. The primary reason for gun control - in Australia at least - is to reduce the harm from lawfully owned firearms. Hence the emphasis on licensing of individuals and registration of weapons.

    The instrument for crime control is the criminal law and its attendant functions and agencies. In Australia we understand that the causes of crime are complex and multiple and we work to try and reduce or minimise those causes. We also deal with the effects of crime which is why we have a criminal justice system.

    I also made the point that comparisons across countries regarding crime rates are just about meaningless due to various interpretations of crime and collection and reporting methods.

    There is a lot of nonsense indeed in this thread, much of it hyperbolic nonsense at that. One thing is clear though, the general attitude to firearms in the US and in Australia is very different. Allowing for the cultural differences - the US has a culture of appreciation of firearms and competence with firearms which is clearly historical and understandable and let me say immediately that I'm not judging or being patronising. Have you ever seen the film "Sergeant York"? The main character, York, played by Gary Cooper, demonstrates his prowess with a firearm in his home community, garnering much admiration from his peers for his ability. That film was set just before the entry of the US into the First World War, but the appreciation for competence with a firearm was a major part of American popular culture from the colonial times. In Australia because we developed differently from the US we didn't have firearms appreciation in our culture, although we have had historically a lot of shooting clubs, many of which produced partially-trained soldiers for the wars we have been in. But it's just not as strong in our popular culture. That is a difference - not a marker of superiority or inferiority. But from that from what I've read here and elsewhere it seems many Americans feel there is a need for the ownership of private firearms to protect against criminals. That isn't the case in Australia. So while the statistics may be difficult to compare I think the general attitude of firearms relating to crime control in America is a marker of the crime problems your society has.

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