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Old 11-11-2009, 05:24 AM
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Default The U.S. House of Presumptuous Meddlers - Stossel

Stossel dispenses utter distilled brilliance, shredding the foundational presumptions that are infecting a run-away Congress.

Quote:
Government cannot do simple things efficiently. The bureaucrats struggle to count votes correctly.
Feel free to point out all the things government does well. I won't even hold you to the standard set by private industry. Just tell me what they do well.

Quote:
Competition is a "discovery procedure," Nobel-prize-winning economist F. A. Hayek taught. Through the competitive market process, we producers and consumers constantly learn things that force us to adjust our behavior if we are to succeed. Central planners fail for two reasons:

First, knowledge about supply, demand, individual preferences and resource availability is scattered -- much of it never articulated -- throughout society. It is not concentrated in a database where a group of planners can access it.

Second, this "data" is dynamic: It changes without notice.
This is not news to most conservatives. It's heresy to the liberty grabbers. Market forces are the enemy.

Here's the meat. Pick any of these four points and write a coherent rebuttal:

Quote:
Proponents of so-called reform -- it's not really reform unless it makes things better -- have shamefully avoided criticism of their proposals. Often they just dismiss their opponents as greedy corporate apologists or paranoid right-wing loonies. That's easier than answering questions like these:

1) How can the government subsidize the purchase of medical services without driving up prices? Econ 101 teaches -- without controversy -- that when demand goes up, if other things remain equal, price goes up. The politicians want to have their cake and eat it, too.

2) How can the government promise lower medical costs without restricting choices? Medicare already does that. Once the planners' mandatory insurance pushes prices to new heights, they must put even tougher limits on what we may buy -- or their budget will be even deeper in the red than it already is. As economist Thomas Sowell points out, government cannot really reduce costs. All it can do is disguise and shift costs (through taxation) and refuse to pay for some services (rationing).

3) How does government "create choice" by imposing uniformity on insurers? Uniformity limits choice. Under House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's bill and the Senate versions, government would dictate to all insurers what their "minimum" coverage policy must include. Truly basic high-deductible, low-cost catastrophic policies tailored to individual needs would be forbidden.

4) How does it "create choice" by making insurance companies compete against a privileged government-sponsored program? The so-called government option, let's call it Fannie Med, would have implicit government backing and therefore little market discipline. The resulting environment of conformity and government power is not what I mean by choice and competition. Rep. Barney Frank is at least honest enough to say that the public option will bring us a government monopoly.
Read it and weep. Once enacted, legislation this powerful, this antithetical to individual liberty, won't be overturned without revolution.
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Old 11-11-2009, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio Refugee View Post
Stossel dispenses utter distilled brilliance, shredding the foundational presumptions that are infecting a run-away Congress.



Feel free to point out all the things government does well. I won't even hold you to the standard set by private industry. Just tell me what they do well.



This is not news to most conservatives. It's heresy to the liberty grabbers. Market forces are the enemy.

Here's the meat. Pick any of these four points and write a coherent rebuttal:



Read it and weep. Once enacted, legislation this powerful, this antithetical to individual liberty, won't be overturned without revolution.


God I love Stossel. He cuts through the bull(*)(*)(*)(*), to the honest to God, barebone facts.

He is absolutely correct on all 4 points/questions.

A real journalist, would be asking politicians these very questions. It goes to show you, just how bad our media is in this country and how they dont hold government accountable to the words they spit out on a daily basis.

IF Stossel were to ask a politician these questions, they would be stumped and simply walk away. No way they could or even dare answer them.
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Old 11-11-2009, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio Refugee View Post
Feel free to point out all the things government does well. I won't even hold you to the standard set by private industry. Just tell me what they do well.
  1. They run the military, your military, and by all accounts we have the best in the world.
  2. They run NASA which no other country can compare with in accomplishment.
  3. They run our Interstate highway system.

That's just 3. And you want all?
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Old 11-11-2009, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by TheHat View Post


God I love Stossel. He cuts through the bull(*)(*)(*)(*), to the honest to God, barebone facts.

He is absolutely correct on all 4 points/questions.

A real journalist, would be asking politicians these very questions. It goes to show you, just how bad our media is in this country and how they dont hold government accountable to the words they spit out on a daily basis.

IF Stossel were to ask a politician these questions, they would be stumped and simply walk away. No way they could or even dare answer them.
Pelosi was quizzed on the constitution authority for her liberty grab and was essentially speechless.
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Old 11-11-2009, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by LeonCoDem View Post
  1. They run the military, your military, and by all accounts we have the best in the world.
  2. They run NASA which no other country can compare with in accomplishment.
  3. They run our Interstate highway system.

That's just 3. And you want all?
Agreed. What of the social programs? What of any program where price, supply or demand is distorted by dictat?
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Old 11-11-2009, 06:23 AM
Ziggy Stardust Ziggy Stardust is offline
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Here are my answers from my understanding of things.

Quote:
1) How can the government subsidize the purchase of medical services without driving up prices? Econ 101 teaches -- without controversy -- that when demand goes up, if other things remain equal, price goes up. The politicians want to have their cake and eat it, too.
Demand isn't going to go up in the long term. Hospitals cannot turn away anyone that turns up in their hospitals for emergency treatment which is where they all end up in the end. Hospitals already cover this by passing on costs to other patients. In the short term, demand will go up, in the long term it will remain the same, less people will end up in ER and more will go for earlier treatment, which is vastly more cost effective.

Quote:
2) How can the government promise lower medical costs without restricting choices? Medicare already does that. Once the planners' mandatory insurance pushes prices to new heights, they must put even tougher limits on what we may buy -- or their budget will be even deeper in the red than it already is. As economist Thomas Sowell points out, government cannot really reduce costs. All it can do is disguise and shift costs (through taxation) and refuse to pay for some services (rationing).
You can buy anything if you have enough money. For the completely public insurance, yes there will be limits.

Quote:
3) How does government "create choice" by imposing uniformity on insurers? Uniformity limits choice. Under House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's bill and the Senate versions, government would dictate to all insurers what their "minimum" coverage policy must include. Truly basic high-deductible, low-cost catastrophic policies tailored to individual needs would be forbidden.
It will create choice for a lot of people who are unable to purchase health insurance due to pre existing conditions, etc. Can't imagine anyone would want to cut out anything that would be classed as "minimum" anyway.

Quote:
4) How does it "create choice" by making insurance companies compete against a privileged government-sponsored program? The so-called government option, let's call it Fannie Med, would have implicit government backing and therefore little market discipline. The resulting environment of conformity and government power is not what I mean by choice and competition. Rep. Barney Frank is at least honest enough to say that the public option will bring us a government monopoly.
Government monolopy over who? The poor? We have public and private health care. Everyone who can afford it goes with private health care. Why? You're covered for more things and you get a nicer hospital room, better meals, etc, etc. Private insurance is much nicer, but there needs to be an option for everyone.

Lots of other countries, including my own, have health care systems similar to what is being proposed by Obama. America pays twice the amount per person, that's twice the amount, of any developed nation and is mid table in terms of quality, availability and coverage of health care and waiting times. There is obviously something seriously wrong with your current system.
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Old 11-11-2009, 06:24 AM
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  1. Quote:
    Originally Posted by LeonCoDem View Post
    They run the military, your military, and by all accounts we have the best in the world.
    No they don't they finance it, but brilliant young minds and hearts with a love for this country and a love for freedom run the military despite the best efforts by some politicians.
    Quote:
    They run NASA which no other country can compare with in accomplishment.
    Which is highly inefficient by anyone's standards, if it were commercially profitable the private sector would drive them out of business.
    Quote:
    They run our Interstate highway system.
    No they fund it, the states run it and not very well where I live, try driving on I-10 through Louisiana and you will not want to do it ever again.
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Old 11-11-2009, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post

Demand isn't going to go up in the long term. Hospitals cannot turn away anyone that turns up in their hospitals for emergency treatment which is where they all end up in the end. Hospitals already cover this by passing on costs to other patients. In the short term, demand will go up, in the long term it will remain the same, less people will end up in ER and more will go for earlier treatment, which is vastly more cost effective.
How do you figure less people will end up in the ER? Will the ER start turning away non emergency treatment?
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Old 11-11-2009, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Cajun Controller View Post
  1. No they don't they finance it, but brilliant young minds and hearts with a love for this country and a love for freedom run the military despite the best efforts by some politicians.Which is highly inefficient by anyone's standards, if it were commercially profitable the private sector would drive them out of business.No they fund it, the states run it and not very well where I live, try driving on I-10 through Louisiana and you will not want to do it ever again.
Hell, they cant even figure out how to finish I-49....lol.

You can always tell when you come from a surrounding state into Louisiana. You start getting sea sick from the up and down motion...lol.
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Old 11-11-2009, 06:35 AM
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How do you figure less people will end up in the ER? Will the ER start turning away non emergency treatment?
Hospitals, from my understanding, only have the "can't turn anyway away regardless of whether they can pay or not" policy from the ER and does not include early treatment or preventative treatment. For example... someone with an ingrown toenail can just go to a GP and get an antibiotic, problem sorted. Or they can wait for the problem to mature, and go and get expensive surgery. Obviously that isn't ER stuff, but just an example.
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