Thread: Why does Homeopathy seem to irk skeptics the most?

Originally Posted by suede

And what about all the people who died agonizing deaths from putting all their faith in chemotherapy?

Oh that's right, you're just biased against altmed.

here, a lot of therapies including homeopathy are referred to as "complementary medicines"

http://www.tga.gov.au/industry/cm-ba...n-overview.htm

there are guidelines in how these therapies are administered, and the important word is COMPLEMENTARY.

they can be used to COMPLEMENT mainstream medicines. some of these are included in some private health insurance - chiro virtually always is, but some funds will cover homeopathy and naturopathy as well.

maybe its different in America ... wouldn't surprise me really - you lot are all so black and white about EVERYTHING!

Originally Posted by cassandrabandra

they can be used to COMPLEMENT mainstream medicines. some of these are included in some private health insurance - chiro virtually always is, but some funds will cover homeopathy and naturopathy as well.

Medibank Private:

"Australia’s largest private health insurer, incorporating the Medibank Private and ahm health funds"

"We'll pay benefits towards the items and services listed in the table below ...

Consultations for myotherapy, reflexology, kinesiology, Chinese & Western herbalism, exercise physiology, shiatsu, aromatherapy, homeopathy, Bowen therapy & Alexander technique"

http://www.medibank.com.au/healthcov...extras-70.aspx

http://www.medibank.com.au/About-Us/...-Overview.aspx


HBF:

"For 70 years, HBF has been the largest health insurer in WA – looking after hundreds of members every day."

"What are you covered for:

Complementary Therapies
- Naturopathy
- Homeopathy
- Acupuncture
- Traditional Chinese Medicine
- Herbalist consultations "

http://www.hbf.com.au/health-insurance/why-hbf.html

http://www.hbf.com.au/health-insuran...ate-cover.html


MBF:

"Bupa is a leading private health insurer with a presence in every Australian state and territory. Our trusted and respected brands HBA, MBF and Mutual Community have been part of Australian life for over 60 years; and today, we proudly look after the needs of more than three million Australians."

http://www.mbf.com.au/AboutMBF

"The following table outlines the types of treatment covered by Extras. ...

Acupuncture, Alexander technique, aromatherapy, Bowen therapy, exercise physiology, Feldenkrais, herbalist, homeopathy, iridology, kinesiology, naturopathy, reflexology, remedial massage and shiatsu."

http://www.mbf.com.au/HealthInsuranc...s/Whatscovered

In Switzerland, alternative or complementary medicine isn't covered by basic health insurance (that's the mandatory part). Most private insurers offer more costly plans though that cover complementary medicine. In my humble opinion, that makes sense. Health care is costly enough even without including untested alternative treatments.

Originally Posted by Uncle Meat

Medibank Private:

"Australia’s largest private health insurer, incorporating the Medibank Private and ahm health funds"

"We'll pay benefits towards the items and services listed in the table below ...

Consultations for myotherapy, reflexology, kinesiology, Chinese & Western herbalism, exercise physiology, shiatsu, aromatherapy, homeopathy, Bowen therapy & Alexander technique"

http://www.medibank.com.au/healthcov...extras-70.aspx

http://www.medibank.com.au/About-Us/...-Overview.aspx


HBF:

"For 70 years, HBF has been the largest health insurer in WA – looking after hundreds of members every day."

"What are you covered for:

Complementary Therapies
- Naturopathy
- Homeopathy
- Acupuncture
- Traditional Chinese Medicine
- Herbalist consultations "

http://www.hbf.com.au/health-insurance/why-hbf.html

http://www.hbf.com.au/health-insuran...ate-cover.html


MBF:

"Bupa is a leading private health insurer with a presence in every Australian state and territory. Our trusted and respected brands HBA, MBF and Mutual Community have been part of Australian life for over 60 years; and today, we proudly look after the needs of more than three million Australians."

http://www.mbf.com.au/AboutMBF

"The following table outlines the types of treatment covered by Extras. ...

Acupuncture, Alexander technique, aromatherapy, Bowen therapy, exercise physiology, Feldenkrais, herbalist, homeopathy, iridology, kinesiology, naturopathy, reflexology, remedial massage and shiatsu."

http://www.mbf.com.au/HealthInsuranc...s/Whatscovered

Don't talk to ME about this!!

Do you realise that the !#!@#!@ arsehole @#!$@! insurance companies WILL pay for "complimentary medicine" but WON'T pay for wound care products!!

Why? Because having a clause saying they will pay for complimentary medicines "sells" to the young and vapid with disposable incomes - the very customer they want to attract

I have a correction to make concerning my post above. I forgot that due to our direct democracy in Switzerland, some alternative medicine will temporarily be covered again under certain circumstances, starting from 2012 until 2017, at which point the efficacy has to be shown using the usual medical standards. Although I dislike that untested treatments will be used outside of medical studies and paid for with my insurance premiums, I like that they will have to undergo rigorous testing within that timespan.

Hopefully, more and more people will learn that testing stuff is very important. As someone working in R&D, I know that this is already expected for pieces of engineering. A car, for example, undergoes rigorous testing before it enters the market and if there are still flaws, the manufacturers are held accountable (one example, Toyota and its failing brakes). Maybe that kind of attitude will eventually apply to all kinds of medicine too.

Originally Posted by Bowerbird

Don't talk to ME about this!!

Do you realise that the !#!@#!@ arsehole @#!$@! insurance companies WILL pay for "complimentary medicine" but WON'T pay for wound care products!!

Why? Because having a clause saying they will pay for complimentary medicines "sells" to the young and vapid with disposable incomes - the very customer they want to attract

exactly!

mind you, its the same here as in Switzerland. Its an add on for the more expensive packages ... basic cover won't get you anything but ... the basics ... .

Originally Posted by Herby

I have a correction to make concerning my post above. I forgot that due to our direct democracy in Switzerland, some alternative medicine will temporarily be covered again under certain circumstances, starting from 2012 until 2017, at which point the efficacy has to be shown using the usual medical standards. Although I dislike that untested treatments will be used outside of medical studies and paid for with my insurance premiums, I like that they will have to undergo rigorous testing within that timespan.

Hopefully, more and more people will learn that testing stuff is very important. As someone working in R&D, I know that this is already expected for pieces of engineering. A car, for example, undergoes rigorous testing before it enters the market and if there are still flaws, the manufacturers are held accountable (one example, Toyota and its failing brakes). Maybe that kind of attitude will eventually apply to all kinds of medicine too.

yes - thats the key.

I find my eyes just glaze over with a lot of this stuff.

I know that some traditional remedies ARE effective, and this has been documented ... but a lot of "complimentary medicine" is basically pandering to hypochondria from what I have seen.

Originally Posted by suede

And what about all the people who died agonizing deaths from putting all their faith in chemotherapy?

The difference is we know those risks, and discuss them with the patients. They can make the decision. Statistically, people do much better with chemotherapy in most cases than not. However that doesn't mean everyone, and we tell people that. A drug that improve survival from 50 - 70% is a good drug, even through 30% still do poorly. If a patient doesn't want the 30% chance of no cure, we won't make them improve their chances of cure from 50 - 70%, its their choice.

The difference is that with homeopathy, nobody has any clue whatsoever what the chances are. It doesn't actually do anything by any metric, and there is no evidence to show that in a large group, taking it yields any improved outcome compared to doing nothing. Patients cannot make an informed decision with homeo, because there is no information to be informed with. I would support homeopaths if they were honest about the evidence for their craft, but they are not.

Originally Posted by cassandrabandra

yes - thats the key.

I find my eyes just glaze over with a lot of this stuff.

I know that some traditional remedies ARE effective, and this has been documented ... but a lot of "complimentary medicine" is basically pandering to hypochondria from what I have seen.

Cass - one of the best places to look for evidence, and forgive me if you already know this, is the "cochrane collaboration". This is an EBP site (evidence based practice). It is set up to do systematic reviews of research

http://www.cochrane.org/

And, despite what some might want to claim it DOES include "alternate" or "complimentary" medicines. The link above is the "public" face of the database and there is a "scientific" face that is accessible through public libraries and health centres. If you even need something checked I have access

Just wanted to make the comment that there is no magical wall between conventional medical therapies and homeopathy. Nor is there any arbitrary category of treatments deemed 'conventional' with no room to change. It's this simple: if homeopathy worked, it would be adopted by and become conventional medicine. As there is no evidence, it will not.

Plenty of herbal and vitamin preparations are used by conventional medicine. Why?, because there is some evidence that they work. Those that have none, are not.