China warns interlopers in South China Sea

The USA is not willing to go to war with mainland China at the same time they will not allow themselves to be sitting duck, mainland China is willing to go to war with the USA over Taiwan. It was the USA who stop Taiwan from declaring independence because the USA knew very well that mainland China will attack and the attack will be focus on neutralising Taiwan's military defences that include attacking the US 7th fleet, US bases in Okinawa and South Korea DMZ. With mainland China's arsenal of missiles it will be able to inflict heavy damage and casualties at the same time this would mean the USA will have to retaliate. The USA at that time needed mainland China to support them in Afghanistan and Iraq.

The reunification of Taiwan with the mainland will all depend on the CCP's change of policy that would allow a two party system in a unified China the CCP and the KMT. Already we see many changes, the CCP policies are very much similar to the KMT which is social-capitalism that saw it's effectiveness in changing Taiwan from 1950 - 1963 in less than 15 years as the most modern and industrial country in South East Asia and it's progress and stability continues to this day. But most outstanding is how Chinese history, culture and traditions were merge and preserve with modernization.

The waiting game is in favour of Taiwan (ROC), as mainland China continue to change soon it will start to accept a two party system just like the KMT for more than 20 years they were in sole control and in power, the KMT will give up its power in favour of democracy that was after Taiwan became a very stable country.

 

Now I make the goalposts much wider for you, but can you score?

"National Bankruptcy. Hyper-inflation. Severe Credit Crisis. The Death of the Dollar and the Euro. Socialism. Even Martial Law. For the first time since the Great Depression, the world’s problems have become our problems. And the experts all agree things will only get worse."

Are you and your family ready to survive the catastrophe? Rush for your survival guide before it's too late.

Fall of America and the Western World
http://www.thefallofamerica.net/

Well, you will know how almighty He is when your final hour comes. Prepare yourself for His judgment.

By my measure of your shallow argument.

[]

Good, your confession of your illegal act is put on record for future judgment of your war crimes.

Hope your government has the guts to depose the North Korean regime and install a new one too.

Hope the United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon can read your arrogant statement.

I am projecting the international opinion.

Now more confessions of your war crimes are put on record for future judgment.

As a reward for your confessions of your country's war crimes, I shall support you with my hands and feet when you vie for the position of UN Secretary-General next time despite all your haughtiness.

Let's see whether there is any difference if China holds a joint military exercise with Mexico near the US-Mexican border.

Let me mock your country in return. Why hasn't the US invaded North Korea?

What a stupid question, Mr Heh Heh!

Yet with your boasting about all your carrier groups, your country is militarily impotent against an impoverished North Korea.

It's just a lame excuse from a coward state that is as impotent as a eunuch when dealing with rogue states like North Korea and Iran.

You have answered your own question why China won't invade Taiwan. Aren't you very funny and weird? LOL!

Better than your lazy style of twisting and wriggling your way out of all arguments without doing homework and research.

Now let's see what your senior U.S. military commander in Asia, Admiral Timothy Keating, has said about the Chinese submarines.

"Chinese submarines have very impressive capabilities, and their numbers are increasing," Keating told reporters in Beijing.

U.S. military officials wary of China's expanding fleet of submarines
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/07/world/asia/07iht-subs.1.9826766.html?pagewanted=all

Why are you unwilling to commit the necessary resources to defeat them? It is because the US is incapable of learning from its mistakes.

Failed Somalia policy comes back to haunt the U.S.
http://progressive.org/mag_apb062006

Yes, a lot.

As I have said before, it's far better than your lazy style of not doing any homework or research.

You confused ultimatum with halting food aid. You obviously don't know the meaning of ultimatum.

Since you are lazy to refer to a dictionary, I do you a small favour by showing a link to find the meaning of the word.

ultimatum
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ultimatum

Mr Heh Heh, you are contradicting your earlier statement that "Taiwan is simply never going to be worth that to them".

Surely the US considers Castro a threat. Hope you have not forgotten the Cuban missile crisis.

I am sure you would also scream "bloody murder" if China does the same thing with Cuba.

My crystal ball is not biased at all. There is no need to get a new one as it can be applied in either way. Yes, I am saying that things that seem unlikely now might not be as unlikely as one thinks. That is, the US collapse that seems unlikely (to you) now might not be as unlikely as you think.

Time is the best judge for my statement and implication.

Old habits die hard. Hope you can shed your Rip Van Winkle image and move on again.

 

Have you ever been to the Philippines? I have, and the very few american soldiers who do remain in the PI help train the Philippine military against seperatists in the south. They also build schools, roads and hospitals. Your one liner has no merit at all.

 

China lacks the military capability to invade Taiwan.

 

If China has a "sadistic" leader who thinks he is the "saviour" of all Chinese, and if you and your family happen to live in Taiwan at the unfortunate moment, you will be sorry to think in this way.

Like the US which has the ability to destroy Iraq, China also has the ability to destroy Taiwan.

To turn Taiwan into rubble, China just has to rain its missiles on Taiwan without sending a single soldier over there.

But why should China kill its own people?

Why should China kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?

Like the US which finds it hard to govern Iraq after the invasion, China would encounter the same problem if it invades Taiwan.

Past conquerors like Genghis Khan, Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great might have no difficulties to conquer other peoples, but winning the hearts of all peoples is an entirely different matter.

As God is kind to China to place the small island beside the Chinese mainland, as God is kind to give China infinite time to wait, why can't China wait for unification by persuasion and cooperation?

The best analogy I can think of for the cross-strait relations is the encounter between Buddha and the Monkey King in the Chinese novel "Journey to the West".

In the novel, the Monkey King was imprisoned by Buddha under the "Five Finger Mountain" and had to wait for five centuries for the monk Tripitaka to bring him to enlightenment.

So why can't China give Taiwan five centuries or longer to wait as the island can never escape from its palm?

Perhaps some people in the US may wish to add Taiwan to its territory. Five centuries may be enough for them to move Taiwan over to America. During this interval, they just have to dig a few pails of Taiwanese soil every day and transport them over by plane to reclaim the sea off the American coast.

Sorry for telling you so much, as I know the less ignorant you are the less bliss you will have.

 

Just how many missiles do you think China has???

 

If you make the predictions vague enough, it is inevitable that China will score.

LOL, case in point.

Oh look, more vague predictions.

So basically you are projecting your opinion, again, as if it were objective. Ok.

LOL! Yes, and the UN is surely going to do something about it this time. I mean, they may have sat back impotently all those other times, but now that I have "admitted" our crimes, things will be different. Right?

Oh no, not "Ban Ki-moon"! Why didn't you warn me that the Secretary General of the toothless UN was scanning anonymous political forums! You've ruined everything for us.

I guess China would need to have the balls to actually do it before we can find out.

Because we do not consider them sufficient threat to merit an invasion yet?

LOL

Yeah, Saddam used to think that as well. Where is he now?

I actually answered it a long time ago. You're just now getting it. I am glad my elaboration helped you to understand. No need to thank me.

You consider fringe blogs to be doing homework and research? LOL!

Heh, this is from your own link:

General Chen does not seem to believe these subs are an iWin button for China...why do you? What does he know that you do not?

There is no contradiction. The problem is your reading comprehension. I am attempting to clarify for you because I am such a nice guy.

The fact that China wont invade Taiwan because it is afraid of the economic and military consequences is not evidence that they would not like to do it.

Not anymore.

You apparently have forgotten that the Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore. Or maybe you did not know it to begin with...in which case I have just educated you.

 

I don't think he understands the first thing about the military implications of a Taiwan/China/U.S. battle. He likely saw some poorly written CNN article and combined it with what he saw in Transformers or X-men and decided that was reality.

 

about 2000 or more. not including long range MLRS.

 

On the contrary, China has the capability to invade. What they lack and risk are:
1. Political will
2. Defection from southern Chinese forces, chances are the CCP will deploy central and northern forces and minimal from the southern forces.
3. Blow back; risk of China's southern military forces from joining the ROC forces and thus having a war on mainland
Remember, during the Tienanmen square demonstration military forces from Beijing refuse to act or take aggressive action that is why the demonstration was able to spread and go on for so long. It would take forces from other regions to finally quell the mini up rising.

In as much as mainland has enough missiles and other sophisticated weapons that can reach Taiwan so does Taiwan. Taiwan has nothing to lose if they lose the war, mainland has lots to lose if they lose or failed in their attempt to take Taiwan.

As time goes by with many of the old timers and hard-liners of the CCP are fading and dying away more and more modern Chinese are starting to take over the government this new generation of leaders have a different approach and they I believe understand the Two Party system and for mainland and Taiwan to reunite the CCP have to start merging both the ROC and the PROC doctrine to form a new and modern China.

 

What amphibious assault ships and heavy transport craft do they have capable of landing and supplying a force of hundreds of thousands of men? What naval capability do they have that can protect these ships (who will be sitting ducks in a known location) from by far the most powerful Navy in the world? What air capability do they have capable of asserting air supremacy over the most powerful Navy and Air Force in the world?

It took the allies YEARS to build the force that landed in Normandy in 1944. They had complete and utter naval supremacy and didn't have to go nearly as far as the Chinese would have to go.

 

How many launchers do they have? Can they protect all these launchers for advanced U.S. strike aircraft? What about Patriot anti-air missiles? Considering how big Taiwan is, 2000 missiles aren't that many. They could certainly do a lot of damage, but the country would remain mostly intact afterwards.

 

Well, they won't yet. But I think this is a sign that they think they'll soon be able to play with the big boys.

China doesn't start fights that it doesn't think it could win. I think other countries are starting to see a weakness in us, most likely due to the difficulties we've had in Iraq and Afghanistan. Iran and China are not afraid of us.

They're barking at a big dog, perhaps they think we're weaker than you do.

The thing is that China probably has us economicly. They make a lot of our computer components, they make a lot of our clothing. It's going to be tough to have a war with the people making your guidance system chips. Or your boots.

This is the weakness of pragmatists. They are completely predictable. They will always work in their own material self interest. Committing suicide over resources is not terribly pragmatic now is it? You wont be able to use the resources if you are dead.



Why is that interesting?[/QUOTE]

 

[/QUOTE]

You some how think two counter-insurgencies (one of which has been won) are indicative of U.S. capabilties in a large Naval/Air engagement? I think you'll find that the rapid speed of GWII was probably a disturbing reminder to the Chinese about just how potent U.S. conventional forces are; Two long term counter-insurgencies that are more dependent on politics than strength of arms aren't really that applicable in strictly military terms.

The U.S. arms industry dwarfs China's. China makes large quantities of cheap goods. 90% of the technology they do produce is designed by foreign firms. I can assure you that U.S. guidance systems are built in the U.S. On the other hand, Chinese guidance systems are built in Russia or France. China lacks the ability to design and build many sophisticated defense components including jet engines and many electronics. Don't buy into the media's sillines. The U.S. is by far the world's largest producers of high tech weaponry.

 

The big boys keep getting bigger. The US has never been more powerful than it is right now. And it looks like that theme will continue into the future. The fact that China is advancing does not mean the US is standing still.

I agree. That is why it will never provoke us. Or for that matter, any nuclear power. Short of an actual invasion of their mainland, I doubt China would ever go to war with us over anything. Certainly not Taiwan.

I think it is the exact opposite. I think they saw that we were willing to invade Iraq over what they see as very little gain. They have seen that the American public (and by proxy, the American Military) can be swayed by political rhetoric, true or not. If Americans believe an enemy is a threat we WILL confront that enemy eventually, whether it is "really" a threat to us or not. Perception is all that matters.

Idealists are dangerous because they are unpredictable.

Their actions do not indicate that.

We have each other economically.

And frankly, a war with China is the best thing that could happen to us economically. All the debt we owe them would vanish in a puff of smoke. China surely knows that as well...they only own our debt as long as they are at peace with us. Once we are at war, our debt to them vanishes.

Well, except that other people can make them too. Cheap labor is cheap for a reason.

 

I actually agree with this...in a vacuum, China could probably defeat Taiwan even with those risks.

But there is a reason they lack the political will...because they know they will not just be facing Taiwan. And I don't just mean the US...there would certainly be political fallout from the rest of the world as well. It would cause a great deal of damage to China's economy even if no foreigners got involved militarily.

 

The distant between Taiwan and mainland is only about 2000 meters well within range of shore missiles and air strikes, both the CCP and Taiwanese forces have the capability to hit targets on each other with out much use of naval ships, that is what they did back in the 60s both Taiwan and mainland were constantly bombarding each other with long range artilleries.

In fact, the naval ships will just become a sitting duck because of them being within range of shore artilleries, missiles and fighter jets.

The CCP will unleash a barrage of artillery and missiles follow up with air power that could destroy Taiwan's defence capability. Mainland troops will just need ships not exactly military carriers or transports but any ship to transport land troops at the same time let us not forget paratroopers.

This is the difference between Normandy of WWII and the possibility of China-Taiwan war. The only reason why in 1950 the communist could not launch an invasion was because they did not have long range weapons that could hit US 7th fleet plus they didn't have nuclear weapons but now they have, the US 7th fleet will likely get seriously hit maybe decimated in the open sea where the communist don't have to worry about civilian casualties if they use nuclear or tactical nuclear weapons against the US fleet.

The only reason that is keeping the communist from carrying out such invasion is that nobody is going to come out the winner here because the USA have enough fire power to inflict serious damage on the mainland not to mention the risk of the CCP loosing and end up having Taiwan taking over the mainland or the southern parts of China. The CCP are willing to take the risk if Taiwan declare independence and the USA knows that, that is why the USA stop Taiwan from declaring independence.

 

LOL, That is completely inaccurate.

Thats well over 100 MILES, not 2000 meters, and that is just to reach the shore. Am I correct in assuming that China might want to hit stuff more than 10 feet inside the shoreline?

Also, just because China can lob missiles does not mean they will be accurate. And without accuracy, they are only useful as terrorist weapons. I would like to see how many missiles China has that are actually accurate at ranges of over 150 miles.

They have no artillery that will reach far enough to be useful.

How many do you believe they can actually transport? Lets see your numbers and the basis for those numbers.

Actually, I doubt they would even risk it then. I think people underestimate how much the CCP values it's economic status.

 

Two points for clarification which might help to establish the credibility of what you write:

1. Please tell me which "guidance systems" were provided by NATO member and key US ally France to the People's Republic of China.
2. Please explain how China manages to launch satellites into space without any knowledge of how to make a jet engine.

There is no doubt that China is far behind. But some of the claims you make seem to be based on a "my willy is bigger than your willy" basis of reasoning.

 

Is there a ' Feelgood Book of Bedtime Stories for Republican Children ' on the market ?

 

Type 210 100/55 automatic single 100 mm
Type HPJ87 100/55 automatic single 100 mm
YJ8 (partially a redesign of the French Exocet and American Harpoon)
HQ-7 SAM (reversed engineered from the French Crotale EDIR)

That's just a tiny sample I found in a few minutes of Russia designed missiles/guns and their guidance systems. The Chinese have dozens and dozens of variants of all different types of missiles. Probably well over 3/4s of them are directly purchased from the Soviet Union/Russia or reverse engineered from Soviet designs. The first two are anti-ship cannons which have guidance systems/fire control systems. The last two are missiles. The Chinese also use A LOT of French command and control features/electronics on their ships. The French are large arms dealers. If you weren't aware, they had billions of dollars in arms deals with Saddam from the 1980s up until 2002. Selling to China is hardly abnormal.

Designing and building modern jet engines for fighter aircraft is extremely complicated. It's probably not very dissimilar to launching a satellite. The Chinese COULD and HAVE build jet fighter engines, but none of them were any good. Evidence of this is found in all their primary aircraft J-7E, J8II, J-10, Su-30MKK, J-11, and Su-27. Every one of these aircraft is either directly from Russia, reverse engineered from Russian aircraft, or Chinese designed with a Russian engine in them. Here's a recent example

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-09-22/news/30189625_1_engine-maker-jf-17-turbofan

I don't make dick claims. I don't buy into the media's silliness though. For some reason it's popular to buy into Chinese propaganda (the DF-21 is a perfect example) without ever checking the facts. People hear about Chinese economic gains and military claims and just assume they're right. They don't consider China's history of exaggerating or outright lying about their military technology/capability (just as the Soviets did). I like dispelling these myths.

 

Those 4 listed weapons systems are of French origin, I realized I wrote Russian in error.

 

100 miles is still within range of the PROC modern missiles and long range artilleries as well as air power. If their intention is total shock and awe, they kill hit everything within range and this include US position the 7th fleet, US forces in Okinawa and in South Korea DMZ with the likelihood of North Korea jumping in as well.

Terrorist weapons that can seriously cause damages to a small island like Taiwan. Just imagine a volley of thousands of arrows raining down blocking out the sun.

They have enough long range artillery that can keep Taiwanese land forces away from landing sites for PROC troops to go ashore.

Once they have clear all possible missile, naval, artillery and air bases plus securing aerial landing sites with their troop helicopter or paratroopers the main invasion force will come in on both military and civilian vessels that can do several trips since it only take about 3 -4 hours of sea travel from southern China to Taiwan plus remember there are also the Quemoy Islands that the PROC can seize and use it as a launching base, the Quemoy Island are very closer to the mainland.

Base on what just happen, when Taiwan was about to declare independence the USA send C. Powell to Taiwan and instead of guaranteeing US support to Taiwan, the USA was as if acting as an agent and ambassador for the PROC that force Taiwan under Pres. Chen Shui-bian to cease and deceased from declaring independence months later coincidentally Pres. Chen Shui-bian lost the next election and was being investigated for financial crimes.

Re unification will never happen as long as the CCP insist on a one party system. Taiwan will need to slowly work its way into China's population hoping that new generation of mainlanders will start to support a two party system that will eventually lead to the re-unification of the PROC and ROC and an end to the Chinese civil war that started in 1930.

 

Source?

I am guessing that accuracy drops dramatically at those ranges.

Yes, so instead of the RISK of a war with the US, it will become a certainty. LOL

So what? Their goal is not to terrorize. Their goal is to INVADE. To do that they need to be able to occupy it. They can't do that unless they destroy Taiwan's ability to defend itself from occupation.

Ask Hitler how well his V2's were at doing this to Britain in WW2. Terrorist tactics might work in cowing Taiwan and making them surrender (over the long term anyway), but they will not work to actually disable Taiwan's defenses.

...and then a day to reload. LOL

Do you understand how dispersed a "volley" of 2000 missiles would be over an area of 14,000 square miles?

You have not provided evidence supporting this claim.

The idea that China could protect landing parties with artillery over 100 miles away is beyond retarded. Do you know how much time it would take an artillery shell to travel that distance even assuming you could do so with pinpoint accuracy? What would stop China from shelling it's own landing parties by mistake? LOL!

How long is it likely to take them to "clear all possible missile, naval, artillery and air bases"? Especially if they are at war with the US due to the Shock and Awe tactics you described.

By the time that happens (if it happens at all) the US Navy will be present in the area with active sonar sinking any Chinese sub or ship they can find.

Thats just strategic ambiguity on our part to discourage trouble. That does not mean the US would not actually support Taiwan if push came to shove. China clearly believes this, which is why they are no longer agitating for invasion like they used to. I think President Bush scared the crap out of them.

Confronting Obama might be even more dangerous, since Obama will probably feel he has something to prove.

And the CCP will insist on that indefinitely. It is more likely that the CCP will be deposed by revolution than it is that the CCP will accept a real multi-party system.

Because the CCP is fully aware that if given a real choice, the masses will never willingly choose them. So they have nothing at all to gain from allowing a choice.

 

No matter how wide I move the goalposts, you will still score nothing.

[]

When you meet Him, you will know that it is no vague prediction.

I am projecting my power ... of argument.

At least your confession will be put on record for future judgment.

You will be the first to be ruined.

Neither has the US, for it has left them in Vietnam.

The same old Rip Van Winkle mentality.

[]

He will tell you when your time comes.

Thanks for making public confessions of US misdeeds.

All things are fringe to you when they disagree with you.

If I know what he does not, then he will have to give way to me.

You are nice indeed to make public confessions of US misdeeds.

Again you try to instigate China to invade Taiwan. Somebody in Taiwan must have done something terribly wrong to you.

The question is how much power Castro is wielding from behind the scene.

The Soviet Union is no more, but the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962 still haunts the memories of many Americans to this day. So let me educate you.

Headlines from the Past… October 28th — Cuban Missile Crisis Ends
http://www.boerner.net/jboerner/?tag=cuban-missile-crisis