The Religion of Atheism

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Alter2Ego, Jun 3, 2012.

  1. Alter2Ego

    Alter2Ego Active Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Messages:
    579
    Likes Received:
    45
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Female
    ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

    Atheists consistently attempt to take the higher ground by pointing fingers of accusation at theists and accusing theists of committing all sorts of human rights violations in the name of "cultish religions," as they are fond of putting it. According to atheists, it is the belief in God that has caused people to commit the various atrocities common to mankind. Remove religion, belief in God, and belief in the Bible--the atheists argue--and the world will be a better place. This latter conclusion is mortally flawed for the following reasons:

    1. Atheists have committed human rights violations en masse throughout history. For instance, Joseph Stalin--the atheist--ordered the deaths of between 40 million to 62 million people (20 million of which were everyday Soviet civilians), compared to the 6 million killed by Adolph Hitler the Roman Catholic "Christian."

    In other words, the problem is not the Bible or God. The problem is people, including those in false religions which have failed to teach the masses Biblical truths. An appreciation for Biblical truths and Jehovah's righteous standards of what's right and what's wrong is the only detriment against people committing human rights violations. Blaming God for the crimes of false Christians is an attempt at passing the buck.


    "See! This only I have found, that the true God made mankind upright, but they themselves have sought out many plans." (Ecclesiastes 7:29)

    "They have acted ruinously on their own part; they are not his children, the defect is their own. A generation crooked and twisted!" (Deuteronomy 32:5)


    2. Atheism is itself a religion aka a cult. While atheist will argue that they don't believe in any god, the issue is not merely non-belief in God or gods but in having ANY sort of belief system. The belief system of atheism is centered around the philosophy of "secular-humanism."


    3. Atheism is a religion according to the 1961 Supreme Court ruling in the case of Torcaso v. Watkins and the 2005 Wisconsin Federal Court ruling in the case of Kaufman v. McCaughtry. Since, by definition, all religions are classified as cults, atheism is therefore a cult.
     
  2. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    May 25, 2012
    Messages:
    55,518
    Likes Received:
    27,044
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Atheism was considered a religion for the sake of protecting atheists' rights the same as the rights of religious persons. But what is atheism? All atheism denotes is non-belief in gods, i.e. a-theos. Is this a religious position? I suppose that's debatable; the way I see it, and the way other atheists I've heard/read see it, god claims are unproven, and even incongruous with observed reality, and so they can be reasonably rejected. For an analogy, see Russell's Teapot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot
     
    BillRM likes this.
  3. montra

    montra New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    5,953
    Likes Received:
    108
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Other than that they are OK though.
     
  4. TBryant

    TBryant Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2011
    Messages:
    4,146
    Likes Received:
    106
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    So what you are saying is that atheist have done bad things.

    From everything I have read Christians have too, and Buddhist (though seldom in the name of their religion), and Islamist, and on and on and on.

    It seems to me to be less about religion than it is about the human will to do wrong.

    Get over it.
     
    JET3534 likes this.
  5. montra

    montra New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    5,953
    Likes Received:
    108
    Trophy Points:
    0
    "Bad" things? Define bad. In fact, I think that people like Hitler thought he was doing the world a favor.
     
  6. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    May 25, 2012
    Messages:
    55,518
    Likes Received:
    27,044
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Hitler and Stalin are two examples of mad men and mad ideas. Kind of a shame that so many followers followed their orders, isn't it?
     
  7. TBryant

    TBryant Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2011
    Messages:
    4,146
    Likes Received:
    106
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    I don't think I need to define "bad". I could call it inhumane or evil, but what is really the difference?

    People like Hitler do not seem to really care about the world accept in the way it can serve their ego.

    I feel pity for their followers.
     
  8. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2009
    Messages:
    8,176
    Likes Received:
    1,075
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The objection that secular humanists have against religion is not the fact that religious people have committed atrocities (well, it is to some, but that argument is flawed). In fact, when secular humanists point out those actions, it is either to counter the claim that religion makes you moral (secular humanists make no such claim and therefore, the fact that atheists have also committed atrocities is not a counterargument), or to criticise the fact that religion donates power and credibility to people for no reason (Stalin and Mao were atheists - I'll leave Hitler to other threads - but they did not gain any considerable amount of votes because of it, whereas the popes that called for the crusades, the priests that molest children or the presidents who call for war were powerful because they were religious and would not have been powerful had they not been religious).
    The word religion or cult is not well defined. I have no particular problem with calling atheism a cult, cults are not judged by the fact that they are cults, they are judged on their ideas, which means that they don't lose nor gain credibility from you wanting to call them by a word with negative connotations.

    Secular humanism is followed by a great percentage of atheists, but not all. Therefore, I would say that calling atheism a cult would be less correct than calling secular humanism a cult. Atheism or humanist do not require one another, and they are not synonymous, however, they come from a similar mindset, which is why there is such an overlap.
    If I remember correctly, the KvM case states that "atheism is equivalent to a religion for the purposes of the first amendment", which is not the same as saying that it is a religion.

    The wikipage on the TvW case sorts out the other statement.

    That being said, I don't have a particular problem with you calling atheism or secular humanism a religion, I just have a problem with you using faulty logic to back it up.
     
    William Dlwgosh likes this.
  9. montra

    montra New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    5,953
    Likes Received:
    108
    Trophy Points:
    0
    But every leader it seems has an ego to serve. In fact, the term politician is equivalent to crook in today's culture. But why is that "bad"? I would assume that since it is obviously our nature to act this way it is natural and should be deemed "good".
     
  10. montra

    montra New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    5,953
    Likes Received:
    108
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hitler was trying to racially purify the world. Stalin was trying to economically purify the world. If only they had joined forces it might have worked!! :)
     
  11. Kranes56

    Kranes56 Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2011
    Messages:
    29,311
    Likes Received:
    4,187
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Religion is differnt from a belief system in the sense that in a religion, there's somesort of god or deity. There's no god in a belief system.
     
  12. montra

    montra New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    5,953
    Likes Received:
    108
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I'm not so sure. We all are looking for a "savior". For the atheist, all they have are politicians. That is why I think that most atheists are statists. They are looking for that wise intellectual who can solve all our problems with morals to match their own to boot. Fortunately for us, we have one now in the White House.
     
  13. Kranes56

    Kranes56 Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2011
    Messages:
    29,311
    Likes Received:
    4,187
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Doesn't change anything. Athetism, is a belief system, not a religion.
     
    David Landbrecht likes this.
  14. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    May 25, 2012
    Messages:
    55,518
    Likes Received:
    27,044
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Atheism by itself is not a belief system - it is the lack of a theistic belief, nothing more. A belief system may coexist with atheism, however, but you have to realise that there are belief systems (at least potentially) that do not involve deities. Isn't humanism a belief system?
     
    BillRM and JET3534 like this.
  15. Panzerkampfwagen

    Panzerkampfwagen New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2010
    Messages:
    11,570
    Likes Received:
    152
    Trophy Points:
    0
    My favourite hobby is not collecting stamps.

    My favourite sport is not playing golf.
     
  16. My Fing ID

    My Fing ID Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2009
    Messages:
    12,225
    Likes Received:
    128
    Trophy Points:
    63
    An argument so easily defeated it can be summed up by cartoons

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  17. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    May 25, 2012
    Messages:
    55,518
    Likes Received:
    27,044
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    OK, had to fix it. That last frame deserves a translation!

    [​IMG]

    (The security text I had to enter in order to upload this one was just right. It was "i'm blushing")
     
  18. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Messages:
    16,105
    Likes Received:
    234
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Whatcha want to bet that will simply be ignored?
     
  19. mutmekep

    mutmekep New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2012
    Messages:
    6,223
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hitler was a devoted catholic
     
  20. AbsoluteVoluntarist

    AbsoluteVoluntarist New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2010
    Messages:
    5,364
    Likes Received:
    102
    Trophy Points:
    0
    No, Hitler was not a "devoted Catholic." He was a lapsed Catholic who didn't have any clear religious position one way or the other. I'm sick of people arguing about whether Hitler was an atheist or a Christian. He didn't seem to really care about religion one way or the other. The Aryan race and the Reich were his concern; he cared about religion only insofar as it helped or hindered the race.
     
  21. Panzerkampfwagen

    Panzerkampfwagen New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2010
    Messages:
    11,570
    Likes Received:
    152
    Trophy Points:
    0
    He continued paying his church taxes until he died. These were voluntary taxes one paid to their church in Germany.
     
  22. AbsoluteVoluntarist

    AbsoluteVoluntarist New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2010
    Messages:
    5,364
    Likes Received:
    102
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The fact that he was sometimes willing to use Christian rhetoric when it helped him politically doesn't make Hitler a faithful believer in Christ. Here's Wikipedia's summary of Hitler's religious views: "Adolf Hitler's religious views are a matter of dispute. Raised by a skeptic Catholic father and a devout Catholic mother, Adolf Hitler ceased to participate in the sacraments after childhood. In his book Mein Kampf and in public speeches he often made statements that affirmed a belief in Christianity. Prior to World War II Hitler had promoted 'positive Christianity', a movement which purged Christianity of its Jewish elements and instilled it with Nazi philosophy. Although a few claimed he was a committed believer, according to the controversial collection of transcripts edited by Martin Bormann, titled Hitler's Table Talk, as well as the testimony of many intimates including Heinrich Himmler, Alfred Rosenberg, Hermann Göring, Albert Speer, Joseph Goebbels and Martin Bormann, Hitler had privately negative views of Christianity and planned its elimination once the war was over. Renowned Hitler scholars Alan Bullock and Ian Kershaw hold this view. In 1985, a letter written and signed by Hitler was published stating the 'Immediate and unconditional abolition of all religions after the final victory [was achieved]' seems to confirm this view."

    That's begging the question because it presumes that atheism is true. Atheism is a metaphysical claim about the world that can be judged as such like any other. Atheists shouldn't cowardly hide behind the pretense that atheism is not an ideological/philosophical position but only a lack thereof, and that therefore they can critique others' ideology but no one can critique their ideology because they don't have one. Rubbish. Every "negative" claim implies a positive one. The claim that there is no God implies the claim the Universe exists through some other means. Atheism is neither the "baseline" position nor is it merely the lack of a position; if it were, it would be the lack of a thought and therefore atheists would have no argument to make.

    Atheism is an ideological/philosophical position and all ideological/philosophical positions can, in theory at least, drive a person to commit acts of aggression to promote those positions or undermine alternative positions (the only exception being a philosophical belief in non-aggression). Historically, there are indeed cases of atheists or at least anti-religionists/secularists committing acts of violence acts religionists, such in the Spanish Civil War, in which thousands of clerics were deliberately and targeted and murdered by terrorists in the name of secularism.

    Further, it may be the case that an atheist view is frequently connected indirectly with other philosophical viewpoints that often lead towards violence. For example, atheists are often utilitarians. It's not necessarily the case but the one often leads logically to the other, so you'll find many individuals who hold both views; they fit well together logically. And utilitarianism, likewise, often leads to an "ends justifies means" mindset--that some violence is acceptable if it brings about greater happiness for the many in the end.

    So, although atheism may not encourage violence per se, certain kinds of worldviews may be have tendency to connect together. Atheism in our society usually derives from the wellspring of epistomological positivism (which is quite different from, say, Buddhist atheism) and positivism, materialism, and utilitarianism tend to be a package deal and they have often formed the philosophical basis of violent, revolutionary ideologues.
     
    Durandal and (deleted member) like this.
  23. Colonel K

    Colonel K Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    9,770
    Likes Received:
    556
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Theists may be looking for a saviour, but atheists, almost by definition, are not. From their naturally sceptical position, theists are as unlikely to place faith in politicians as in gods, but will adopt an independent outlook.
     
  24. AbsoluteVoluntarist

    AbsoluteVoluntarist New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2010
    Messages:
    5,364
    Likes Received:
    102
    Trophy Points:
    0
    So? He didn't participate in church life. He used religion as a political tool. He would have been more than happy to throw it out the window to further the race and the Reich. I don't claim he was necessarily an atheist and, if he was he was hardly any more than an apathetic one, but claiming he was devout Christian is wholly ahistorical.
     
  25. Colonel K

    Colonel K Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    9,770
    Likes Received:
    556
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Meaningless circularity. Atheism is that lack of belief in a God or Gods. That is the sole factor common to the group. To attempt to generalise negative attributes held by individuals within the group to the entire group is duplicitous.
     
    JET3534 likes this.

Share This Page