Why doesnt god just show himself?

Here's my response to the tortured logic of old Catholic theologians and philosophers:

[video=youtube;1PT90dAA49Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PT90dAA49Q[/video]

 

Well lets see, Biblically God showed himself to Adam and Eve and spoke with them daily yet they chose to disobey him. He showed himself to the Hebrews as he have them manna from heaven and split the Red Sea before their eyes yet they built a golden calf to worship instead. He came in the form of Jesus and he healed people and raised them from the dead as people came from miles around for healing, then they nailed him to a cross.

As we can see it does alot of good.

 

Hehe. I think in Hebrew mythology, though, "the Adversary" wasn't that unfriendly toward Yahweh. And really, why should he be? Look what they supposedly did to Job! It was wonderfully reflected in that Eddie Murphy movie Trading Places. Have you seen it? It had a couple of old rich white guys placing a $1 bet about turning Eddie's "street trash" character into an upstanding citizen and so on. He ended up taking Dan Akroyd's place, as I recall, so Dan basically got the Job treatment in the process. It was just as callous as the God vs Devil wager in Job. The Christian position is to revere one of those old farts while totally hating the other one.

 

If you think you understand quantum mechanics, I suggest you go start touring. Thousands of Physicists would love to hear you talk.

As for answering a question with a question, I'd like to think it Socratic rather than a logical fallacy, but hey. I asked you: "In what way does creation designate removal of free will?" You answered with a star wars referenced question about destiny. I responded with a question about how destiny and creation were the same thing, you again responded with a question. I am okay with this type of debate, I think questions provoke critical thinking. But to accuse me of fallacies when you have repeatedly done them yourself is the wrong way to debate.

I did not ask you to prove God doesn't exist. Simply provide some evidence. You have since proved that human logic is flawed, and quantum mechanics proves this. If this is true, how can we trust any human conclusion?

 

As we can see, every instance of Yahweh supposedly showing himself is known from a biblical story.

Now let's talk about Iluvatar existing and showing himself

 

Lulz. The evidence for the non-existence of Yahweh is all around you, in the bible and outside the bible. Everything we know today is far removed from the busy-body sky-demon of the bible.

 

So how do you address questions of morality? or ethics? these questions are not based in hard science, with few discernible facts. Yes it works for determining how a mountain is formed, but how about the idea of torture? The ideas of sacrifice?

Life is more than hard facts and the conclusions that are reached using them.

I find it kind of insulting that you call it an absurdity, I don't insult your beliefs, simply challenge them, please don't insult mine.

 

Than it should be easy to show me like two or three examples...

 

I'll call such beliefs what they are: absurd. As absurd as believing in fairies or gnomes, or really believing in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. I think I have every right to call an unfounded, unrealistic belief absurd, because it fits the definition.

Morality and ethics are social qualities, and humans aren't the only species to have them. Our primate cousins have ethics and morals, just as they also can be cruel, murderous and "sin" in other ways. Science is constantly probing these matters, and obviously there already exists quite a bit of knowledge about them today. Even dogs have similar concepts, and they too are social animals by nature. These elements tend to go hand-in-hand, namely intelligence, social structure and ethics. Ethics/morals are of course essential to a social existence.

 

The bible is a flat-earth book full of plagiarised astrological references.

Life apparently evolved from common ancestry, rather than having been specially created.

There is no such thing as spirit; it is an outdated concept that once held wind and breath to be something living.

Otherwise, I'll need you to define how your god is falsifiable. Every belief should at least be falsifiable in some way.

 

but if I posed to you a question imposing a social conundrum, what facts would you root your decision in?

You require something to be have hard evidence to be true. I can offer philosophers, logical arguments, even some hard evidence of a soul. Yet you require testable evidence that follows the scientific process of today to have anything be true. I kind of feel sorry for you.

 

Most religions, churches, and peoples don't take the Bible literally. I see accusations but no evidence.

Its Catholic canon at least that evolution is true.

Falsifiability is not required for something to be true. And why can you use the philosophical pretense of Falsifiability and I can't use it? hmm.

 

Not necessarily - the more reasonable an idea is without solid evidence, the more likely I am to accept it.

So far, spirits and gods have got nothing to offer me.

 

The Catholic church has kept up with the times, it's true, even if it burned countless "heretics" before coming to terms with them.

Lucky thing for Galileo that his heliocentrism heresy only got him house arrest, eh? Of course, he did end up publicly recanting that heresy before he got that lenient life sentence..

 

we see god everyday, were all part of god, god is everything, we are part of everything, were all connected, god is not separate from us

 

So If I offer a philosophical argument that makes sense, you'll accept it?

 

Gotta learn somehow.

 

There are thousands of gods. Which one is your favorite?

 

If you want to see a goddess you should go to Nepal and see the Kumari.
Kumari - Living Goddess - Nepal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxCbhJve6Ks

 

So QM doesn't require violations of the 2nd law of thermodynamics? Is this what you are insinuating?

Have you ever heard of a rhetorical question? Its a question that is meant to make a person think that does not need an answer.

However, I think I have misread your question:

So allow me to re-answer: No they are not. Destiny doesn’t exist.

It is implied in your statement:

Human logic is all fine and dandy till evidence says otherwise. As I stated before, logic would dictate that you cannot create something from nothing. Humans discover the QM world, where it requires the creation of energy (particles). This is a logical fail. Because of this, you want to say we cannot trust human conclusion? That’s quite the leap of faith there.

You asked if logic was acceptable for 'evidence' for 'god'. I said no, and explained why. Empirical evidence will trump logic every time. We have plenty of empirical evidence for naturally made universe that does not require nor need any 'god' for its formation. This does not prove that some 'god' does not exist. I am open to the idea of a supernatural world. Give me empirical evidence for it. So far, I haven't seen any.

 

Excerpt...

....Excerpt from the OT.

disclaimer; Sorry for the length but its necessary. If the OT was not a strawman thread, you know what that is, a thread created to make a statement, not to debate, my answer would have been much shorter. I answered the OT like it was a legitimate thread, so I do apologize for the length.


The reason I switched from science major to theology major was because I was searching for 'truth'. It did not take long to discover that science while a great tool had little to offer in the search. Theology may have more I suspected so I went for it. The reason I went for an advanced degree was because like science I saw that there was far too much to learn by self teaching. Anyway, just background as to why some of my answers may seem convoluted. In addition It’s difficult to answer such questions in a message board sitting, any one of the above is a book length subject.

Nevertheless, I will try to answer one at a time. (1) why doesn't god just show himself and stop the mystery and drama? God is atemporal which means timeless and eternal and compared to his creation he, or 'it'* if you prefer is perfect in his domain or realm which many call heaven. The bible is the best source we have to understand what God is and his attributes etc. There are other sources of information lots of it, ancient texts, other religions, the rejected books of the bible, archeological information etc. But the bible is the best documented source of information. In the bible you will notice that God rarely if ever** in over five thousand years comes to our universe, our world in his own form***. From Noah to Jesus no God. He always sends a messenger such as an angel or uses other means such as a dream, a vision, an apparition, inanimate objects**** or even Jesus which I feel was a regular man instilled with extraordinary knowledge and God inside.

God may have no form that man can comprehend, he is not of this universe at all. That is not the primary reason but I do believe that is part of the reason God does not and will not show himself …ever in the temporal universe. The other reason is that God has a plan for man. Perhaps living a lifetime as a mortal flesh and blood man that experiences all the pain joy and other things that a lifetime teaches is the ONLY way a mortal being can learn enough to graduate to heaven? A lifetime may seem so long, but to an eternal being its less than a blink of an eye. So to unbelievably simplify it, life is the undergraduate school for humans to become spiritual quality beings. Just as college is the only way to turn out qualified people a lifetime learning to apply Gods ways is the only way to become clean enough (spiritually speaking) to become an eternal being.

We may be the first flesh and blood beings that have been given the opportunity to live eternally. We may be an experiment of sorts, as a matter based universe may have not existed before this creation******. Lastly the bible tells us God has secrets that will not be revealed until and if we make it to heaven. Duet. 29:29 (and many others verses) gives us a hint of these secrets ; The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.”
See this site for much more and validating information ; http://www.mysteryofgod.net/
So faith that God has a plan and we are part of it is the most important of all the attributes that man can bring to muster in his relationship with his creator. I hope this helps and would be happy to clarify anything that is confusing etc.

Notes;

*… The bible is written in a male orientated style, the Hebrew language (which the old testament was written in) is difficult. For example when Hebrew verbs are conjugated in a sentence it identifies person, or being. Other verbs, most of them at least are written in the perfect tense, third person, masculine, singular form. So God is always seen as masculine.

** Some theologians etc feel God did show his form to Moses, many disagree as I. The Hebrew actually translates as God telling Moses not to look directly at him but to cast his eyes aside or look behind him. Some translations are a bit comical. At the risk of Heresy or blasphemy one translation God tells Moses to look at Gods backside! Ha ha, So you see Hebrew does not directly translate to English sometimes! One must use a bit of common sense when translating!

*** God IMO has no physical form.

**** The burning bush which directly translated means the shrub that does not conflagrate or burn up.

***** Science ie the big bang hot model supports the contention that this is the only universe we have empirical evidence for. The BB theory does not rule out universes or a cyclical universe etc but we have no proof for such things despite the best efforts of atheist theoretical physicists to change the perception that was projected by the original BB theory i.e. one universe.

reva

 

im open.

I can absorb and utilize effort to understand.

bring it

 

My reading of the OT is exactly why I do not believe the Bible is the word of God or divinely inspired in its entirety.

 

experience and the witnessing of previous events. that is how morality, ethics, moving mountains, torture and sacrafice are known and experienced, described and known again and again, by another, even without being there.

Words enables and mankind created them.

the conscious experience of events are tied to coherance of memories

life is a process

your conscious experience of self, is off each night you sleep.

but the process is still in motion

 

Why doesnt god just show himself?


Well, if its because he cant, then he isnt God.
If its because he doesnt want to, then he's a cruel and evil entity.
Either way, the existence of God is irrelevant to how we should live because his existence has a negligible effect on our own.