Article 1, Section 8 - Question for Conservatives

Wealth redistribution isnt providing for or promoting The General Welfare.....

......its theft.

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Actually for about 100 years until the first true progressive got into the Presidency, Woodrow Wilson who found the Constitution an impediment to his idea of guiding society through the science of government.

 

Maxmatic, don't expect history to intrude on those that feel entitled to other people's property through force of government.

 

Lol, typical argument of someone who knows a response will lose him the argument.

 

What did they mean?

 

Because the founding father most responsible for that passage said otherwise...

James Madison said that 'general welfare' not prescription for unlimited government

 

In order to understand how the "general welfare" clause does not pertain to "welfare" as we know it today, one must first understand the context in which it was written and the fact that words can change their definitions over time. First, let us take a look at the definition of welfare as it was defined in 1828 (I was not able to locate a 1700's source on short notice):

Now, let us take a look at the word as it was defined in 1913:

For the last definition, let us examine the word as it is presently defined:

Finally, let us take a look at the etymology of the word:

With these pieces information, we can conclude that the general welfare clause is referring to the well being of all people. The concept that welfare is meant for the well being of specifically the poor or children or unemployed was added later as the definition of the word was modified.

 

Explain to me, then, in black and white terms, what "regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes;" means. Then explain how the federal government is restrained by your interpretation.

I know it's hard to swallow, but the Constitution is incomplete. At the very least, ambiguous terms should have been defined within the document. There were those, back then, who didn't even think it was clear that powers not granted to the federal government were restricted from it, which is why you have the tenth amendment, and James Madison saying:

“I find, from looking into the amendments proposed by the State conventions, that several are particularly anxious that it should be declared in the Constitution, that the powers not therein delegated should be reserved to the several States. Perhaps words which may define this more precisely than the whole of the instrument now does, may be considered as superfluous. I admit they may be deemed unnecessary: but there can be no harm in making such a declaration, if gentlemen will allow that the fact is as stated. I am sure I understand it so, and do therefore propose it.”

 

How do citizens/businesses pay "taxes, duties, imposts and excises" if not from their wealth?

 

The general welfare derived from the specific and defined enumerated powers that were immediately and subsequently listed......

......what did you think they meant? That Government can do whatever it wants as long as they call it General Welfare?
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Wrong question.....

If Im Paying Taxes.....and your Paying Taxes.....in the name of The General Welfare....

.......why would you end up with my money?

See what a complete lie and utter fraud you believe in?
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James Madison seems to have read his intentions into the Constitution, instead of making it say everything explicitly.

 

Regulated commerce, specifically pertaining to Interstate Commerce, means to make regular or specifically, governing the commerce between States. After the early 1900's it has been expanded by progressive government to mean governing the economy which was unconstitutional up to that time.

 

Well, only far right morons have a problem with welfare in general, the more moderate (aka not stupid) ones simply want welfare to be more regulated to keep scumbad junkies and other people who abuse the system from being able to use it.

 

Actually it was pretty specific.....

Provide For the General Welfare

• To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
• To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
• To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
• To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
• To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
• To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
• To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
• To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
• To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
• To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
• To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
• To provide and maintain a Navy;
• To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
• To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
• To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
• To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
• To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

And for back up the Founders threw in the 10th........

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


The Founders covered our bases pretty well......which is why it takes such a liberal perversion of The Constitution today to try and justify the 100% unconstitutional platform and agenda of The Democrat Party.
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Those are your words, the actual words say, "TO MAKE ALL LAWS WHICH SHALL BE NECESSARY AND PROPER FOR CARRYING INTO EXECUTION THE FOREGOING POWERS." And one of those "powers" is the "power to lay and collect taxes...to provide for the general welfare."

How about we stick to the actual words of the document, eh?

 

So, anyone who is not stupid should be able to give a coherent, logical justification of the forcible taking of property from one party for the purpose of giving it to another party. So, let's have it.

 

Let's have a look, shall we?

(emphasis added below)

EVERYTHING in this long sentence refers to what is being done for the states uniting under the Constitution.

Understanding "provide for the common defence" takes little more effort than looking up the definition of the word 'common'. See the third entry at dictionary.com: "joint; united: a common defense." In other words, the states were uniting not just economically, but also for purposes of defense. An attack on one state would be an attack on all.

"promote the general Welfare" is exactly what another poster already told you: it's a reference to promoting the general health of the states uniting under this Constitution.

 

Why did you conveniently leave this part out which is right below the enumerated powers? "TO MAKE ALL LAWS WHICH SHALL BE NECESSARY AND PROPER FOR CARRYING INTO EXECUTION THE FOREGOING POWERS."

 

Is that not what you wanted?....as you were having trouble interpreting what The Founders layed out in black and white.....

So its......

1. Provide for The General Welfare

2. Then the Founders listed the specific Enumerated Powers that would Provide for the General Welfare

3. Then the Founders stated Congress can make any law necessary to carry out the specific and defined Enumerated Powers they just listed


You getting it yet?
.....because The Constition is (*)(*)(*)(*)(*) slapping you across the face.....
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You wouldn't even have "money" if not for the government.

Your tax monies end up in the hands of those who work for the Post Office, build the Post roads, those who regulate commerce, promote the sciences, promote the arts, etc.

Why is it redistribution if your tax monies go to the poor but not redistribution when it pays for the salary of the post man?

 

Oh I am all for welfare tax being optional.....If you don't want to pay it, you shouldn't have to.......but you should not be allowed to relieve a dime of aid either.....No food stamps.....no medicare......no SS.........You can opt out of paying them if you want, but you are on your own if something heppens tpo you and you need help. Those who refuse to aid those in need when they are able too, deserve no aid themselves.

 

Necessary and proper for carrying into execution "The Foregoing Powers"......which would be the specific and defined enumerated powers that The Founders just listed prior....

Amazing isnt it.....Thomas Jefferson and James Madison have you wrapped around their pinky..... 200 years later.....truely Great Americans/Conservatives.
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Now, what will you make of the words of the document itself? What DO they mean? If you really want to know, how would you find out? If literature written by the same people who wrote the document in question is available, wouldn't you consult that if you really wanted a clearer understanding of the document in question? Now, I'm not saying that the meaning of what is written in the constitution is obvious to anyone who reads it, but a pretty clear understanding of it can be gotten if you look at the historical context in which it was written. There are ways to rationalize just about any belief you want to hold, but if you're honest with yourself and you read enough of what was written by the guys who wrote the Constitution, you won't be able to justify the idea that they meant to define charity as welfare.

 

You really believe that? Do we need to explain what money is now, and how it comes into being?