How The Monetary System Works - And Why It Seriously Needs to Be Replaced

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Spiritus Libertatis, Nov 21, 2013.

  1. Spiritus Libertatis

    Spiritus Libertatis New Member Past Donor

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    Now certain people, and you know who you are, constantly tell everyone on here who isn't a big-government spender that they don't know how the monetary system works and we should be glad for having such a huge debt because, as it turns out, without debt there's no money. Yes, that's right, there's no money if there's no debt. That's how ass-backwards these bureaucrats and their banker friends have set this crap up, and purely because this kind of system, as I said all along but without knowing exactly how it works, benefits the people who run it the most. The bankers make a handy profit and the government gets to pull the puppet strings of society whichever way they want to. This is why it was adopted all over the world: the bankers (who also seem to end up running the central bank - hmm....) get rich, and the government gets to go on a power trip because that's why they really signed up for the job in the first place.

    Luckily I found something to spare me having to type the explanation out here in a huge-ass block of text:

    [video=youtube;h9iXHB7O-Oo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9iXHB7O-Oo[/video]

    And at the end he basically advocates what I've said should be so all along, and how a lot of people probably thought things ran in the first place (I used to too): the government creates enough money to represent the value of the wealth of the economy, plus extra to accomadate for growth. Now he goes on about the government spending money on things too, I don't advocate that because it's not the government's place, but the gist is the same and in this way money actually represents value instead of literally representing debt.

    This is why people are kept in the dark. This is why certain people on here (you know who your are) never directly answer questions about this and actually explain it to you when you ask, because once you understand how it works you realize it's a huge (*)(*)(*)(*)ing scam.

    What shall we do about it? Not sure. Plunge the world into anarchy and start over I suppose. Theoretically I suppose you could reform it but good luck convincing your government of that. Honestly I don't know how you get out of it, but (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*) we better do something somehow.

    You've been had, people.
     
  2. RtWngaFraud

    RtWngaFraud Banned

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    The entire economic structure is based ENTIRELY, on debt. When you get a loan at a bank, they 'type in' your deposit. Nothing of value actually moves anywhere. You MUST borrow, and you MUST spend like a drunken sailor, or the system itself collapses. All smoke and mirrors.
     
  3. Spiritus Libertatis

    Spiritus Libertatis New Member Past Donor

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    Holy (*)(*)(*)(*) we agree on something. Has that ever happened before? I can't recall. Maybe on Bush-era foreign policy or something.
     
  4. RtWngaFraud

    RtWngaFraud Banned

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    Some things transcend political views, I suppose.
     
  5. Spiritus Libertatis

    Spiritus Libertatis New Member Past Donor

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    Well I suppose this is in the interest of everyone who isn't trying to a) profit or b) control us using this system.
     
  6. RtWngaFraud

    RtWngaFraud Banned

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    Sounds logical. Should I be scared that we agree??
     
  7. Spiritus Libertatis

    Spiritus Libertatis New Member Past Donor

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    No no, this is good. We are already doing better than the US Congress.
     
  8. RtWngaFraud

    RtWngaFraud Banned

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    This is true. Okay, I'll take your word for it.
     
  9. Spiritus Libertatis

    Spiritus Libertatis New Member Past Donor

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    Poking around the net...

    [video=youtube;Sp3JdQvxEts]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sp3JdQvxEts&list=PL5B411B819BCA7324[/video]

    Same guy but he explains it so well.

    Seriously listen to that video. You what it means?

    Unless we do something, we're (*)(*)(*)(*)ED.
     
  10. RtWngaFraud

    RtWngaFraud Banned

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    Have you ever watched "The Corporation"? If so, what do you think of it?
     
  11. Spiritus Libertatis

    Spiritus Libertatis New Member Past Donor

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    No I never did.
     
  12. akphidelt2007

    akphidelt2007 New Member Past Donor

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    It's not a scam at all. You just are confused and do not really understand it. And we directly answer all your questions. You just refuse the answers because you are in this crazy anti-government mindset. You act like this is a new thought process. Crazy people have been saying this stuff for the past century. They are always wrong and they just change the numbers and move the goalposts. Debt denominated in your own nations made up currency is not the same as debt denominated in another currency or commodity. Having the government in charge is much better than being dependent on people digging a ridiculous rock out of the ground.
     
  13. Spiritus Libertatis

    Spiritus Libertatis New Member Past Donor

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    You claim that, then insist I don't understand it again. Even though I now understand how it works. You just think I "don't understand" why it's a good idea for the government to be doing this, and it's not that I don't understand, it's that I think it's a very bad idea but you are utterly convinced big brother always knows best. Well guess what, when they willingly set up a monetary system like this it just gives me more "crazy anti-government" ammo, because this system is a terrible idea that, if perfect, simply makes us subject to the whims of the government and banks, or if imperfect (which it is) will eventually crash. Why should I trust people that set up a system that will eventually bankrupt us all just so that they could play king?
     
  14. akphidelt2007

    akphidelt2007 New Member Past Donor

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    This system is a great idea and one that has been adopted by every developed country in the world and even the ridiculous Euro countries are slowly going to transform the EU in to a system like ours. What you can't understand is that the "debt" we create and owe is made out of thin air, so we don't really "owe" that money. It just gets transferred back and forth between banks and other entities. The system we use will never change backwards, it will only grow in to a more evolved banking/government monetary system. We definitely will never go back to being dependent on a useless rock.
     
  15. mutmekep

    mutmekep New Member

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    I wouldn't bet on that .
     
  16. akphidelt2007

    akphidelt2007 New Member Past Donor

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    I would. Either they break up or transform in to a system like ours. The IMF came out and even said that there are talks to create one bonding and taxing agent... which would essentially turn those EU countries in to states and it would function like the US. Can that work with the history of those countries, not sure... but if it doesn't work, they will end up breaking up and going back to their own sovereign nations using the United States monetary system.
     
  17. mutmekep

    mutmekep New Member

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    I doubt that EU will still be here in 2020 , the neoliberals screwed it up and their water is getting low.
    For mostly political reasons i feel that your system will not sustain itself for much longer .
     
  18. Spiritus Libertatis

    Spiritus Libertatis New Member Past Donor

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    Actually yes we do owe that money, the difference is that to pay it off you just issue more debt. Of course that has issues in and of itself that you never admit to because in the short term and small scale, it doesn't matter, but it does in the long term and large scale. But hey, as long as you guys get to go on a power trip, why not?

    Oh yeah, right, I want the government to serve us not the other way around.

    Stop assuming I want to go back to gold currency. I do not, it limits the amount of money artificially. Money should be just paper notes. The difference is that every dollar should represent a portion of the overall wealth in the economy, not be an IOU from a bank. The amount of money should be enough to represent the wealth of the economy so we have a handy medium for exchanging that value around. That's it. That makes sense. In fact, it makes so much sense that's how people usually assume money is now.

    Oh but then the feds couldn't go on massive spending sprees? Hm, such a shame...
     
  19. akphidelt2007

    akphidelt2007 New Member Past Donor

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    That is how it is now. You simply do not understand the system at all. You think you do, but you don't. The debt based monetary system will never go away. It has proven to be the most effective and logical system in the history of mankind and you will see just about every developed country in the world using it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    In America or the EU? I think the EU is a mess and they have two options. Either drop the individual country labels and create one bonding/taxing agent like the United States or break up. Not sure why you think it's a system I support. I've been saying it was going to be a mess for years.
     
  20. Spiritus Libertatis

    Spiritus Libertatis New Member Past Donor

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    No no no stop telling me I don't understand it. I DO understand it, I just don't approve of it, but because you are as high and mighty you think there's no logical way I should be able to dislike it and as such there must be something I don't get. As far as I can tell the only way I'm ever going to "get it" is once I agree that it's a good idea. Well it's not, unless you're a banker or a politician.

    Drop the "will never go away" thing, nothing is ever absolute in human affairs, that is your first mistake and one you make all the time. Yes, actually changing this stupid system is an extremely difficult prospect; it may already be too late, we may end up with a Rome-style economic collapse and something new will have to be built out of it. That's happened before, and ultimately each failure simply ends up driving us higher (for example, though Rome collapsed, we are far much more advanced than Rome).

    You literally either don't seem to acknowledge or care about the unsustainability of this system or the massive power it gives those who run it over society, because as far as I can tell you're fine with it as long as it can be used to push your progressive agenda.
     
  21. akphidelt2007

    akphidelt2007 New Member Past Donor

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    You can dislike it all you want, but your reasons you are listing for disliking it are not even accurate things that are happening. You are just anti-government. There is no logic to your disliking of the system, you simply hate the government and would never admit that a system based around them could be successful. Just all this doom and gloom "Rome-style economic collapse" nonsense that people have been saying for centuries.
     
  22. Spiritus Libertatis

    Spiritus Libertatis New Member Past Donor

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    No it actually can't. In a perfect world, this system works if you have 100% interest recycling so nothing is ever taken out of the system. Then, you just have a society where bankers and bureaucrats control everything (which is terrible). But that doesn't happen, so the gap between the money supply and the amount of debt simply increases. This whole system requires constant economic growth to keep society prosperous - except endless growth is impossible.

    Yes I am anti-government, in large part. We do need a government, but the government has not proven itself trustworthy with very many things. This system didn't need to be set up, it was set up so the government and their banker friends would have more power. That is why I don't like the government: I don't trust them, they've done nothing to deserve trust.

    What I don't understand is why you trust the government despite the track record of human governments from antiquity to the modern day. That kind of trust is just so easily exploitable by people who exploit their position. And if you think those people don't exist, you are living in a fantasy land.
     
  23. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    The study of money, above all other fields in economics, is one in which complexity is used to disguise truth or to evade truth, not to reveal it. ~John Kenneth Galbraith

    Good thread. Thanks for the video, too.. good, simple explanations. Often things are much simpler than they are made out to be. Economics, especially, likes to hide in a shroud of mystery & complexity.

    The power to determine the quantity of money... is too important, too pervasive, to be exercised by a few people, however public-spirited, if there is any feasible alternative. There is no need for such arbitrary power... Any system which gives so much power and so much discretion to a few men, [so] that mistakes - excusable or not - can have such far reaching effects, is a bad system. It is a bad system to believers in freedom just because it gives a few men such power without any effective check by the body politic - this is the key political argument against an independent central bank. ~Milton Friedman

    Inflation has now been institutionalized at a fairly constant 5% per year. This has been determined to be the optimum level for generating the most revenue without causing public alarm. A 5% devaluation applies, not only to the money earned this year, but to all that is left over from previous years. At the end of the first year, a dollar is worth 95 cents. At the end of the second year, the 95 cents is reduced again by 5%, leaving its worth at 90 cents, and so on. By the time a person has worked 20 years, the government will have confiscated 64% of every dollar he saved over those years. By the time he has worked 45 years, the hidden tax will be 90%. The government will take virtually everything a person saves over a lifetime. ~G. Edward Griffin

    With the exception only of the period of the gold standard, practically all governments of history have used their exclusive power to issue money to defraud and plunder the people. ~Friedrich August von Hayek

    In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. ... This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard. ~Alan Greenspan
     
  24. akphidelt2007

    akphidelt2007 New Member Past Donor

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    Lol, "if you have 100% interest recycling so nothing is ever taken out of the system.". These are the comments you make that always lead me to saying you don't understand the system. Because if you understood it you would realize how ridiculous this comment is. Nothing is ever "taken out of the system".

    I don't trust people in general. I trust OUR government because their decision making has been aligned with what I believe is very appropriate policies to help economic growth. Also there has never been a time in history where you can trust the non-government either. So who do you trust? I tend to not trust anyone and I focus on what they are saying, what they are doing, and why they are doing it.
     
  25. SMDBill

    SMDBill Well-Known Member

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    While the system works as is, there's no reason at all we need to pay interest for the use of our own monetary sovereignty. There's just no reason for it. We don't need China's money, nor Japan's nor anyone else's. Because we have monetary sovereignty and we have a fiat money system based on the good faith and credit of the United States, there is zero reason to sell debt to any foreign or domestic customer. What comes of carrying debt held by foreign nations and the public, banks, etc., is an illusion that there is intrinsic value in the currency that really only does reside in our faith in the government and its ability to pay. What other value is there in borrowing say $10Billion instead of just creating our own $10B from the treasury? None...other than the country or organization loaning the money receives interest on their money via debt servicing, which generates a perception of long term value.

    The system does work and I do understand it. What I don't understand is why it's allowed (besides enactment of the Federal Reserve Act of 1913). Within our system banks loan money that doesn't exist, banks have nowhere near enough money to pay people if they demand their money back, and the demand of money back out of banks all at once collapses the entire house of cards. Why else is faith in the monetary system so important to a government?

    It's very true that the charade benefits the banks. Always has, always will. They designed the system, they control the system and they benefit in both up and down economies because only they can loan money they don't even have and profit from doing so. It was brilliant of them to design the system and get it in place in the early 1900s, but we're naive to think there's no better way. I often wonder how much regret Woodrow Wilson lived with up to his death after approving it. Heck, the greenback would work today in a fiat currency and that would require zero debt, zero interest. But I give them credit for making our debt "attractive" via interest in order to get others to buy it so they remain faithful in the currency because, after all, if they invested in it then it is in their interest to see it remain strong. Brilliant, but not the best way if we really are honest with ourselves. We could hire Ben Bernanke, and others, directly as a government servant and have him manage the monetary system from within, under full control and oversight, just as it was designed to be in the Constitution. And if the government controlled the money supply without debt, as intended when we were founded, banks would revert back to true borrowing from the government in order to have assets to lend. Yes, costs to borrow would go up, but so too would incomes because we no longer would pay taxes for debt servicing to the tune of about $30B-35B/month as we do now.

    It's a great system we have, but surely it can be done better. But not one backbone in government exists to attempt to wrestle power from the very banks (Fed member banks) that control everything.
     

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