Part 10 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

Sorry, it's fact because I say so. End of story, I win, you lose according to me.

 

Oh well. Good game... thanks for playing... oh.. btw: Not in this judges opinion.

 

No, you think I won too, it's already been proven in my mind.

 

Such are the creatures of your mind.

 

Does a puppet have free will? No it isn't strange. If you aren't in control of your life, you have no free will. It is pretty simple actually.

So how does a well documented verse as Mitt gave about completion of creation have 2 people who believe the same verse as 2 opposites?
You say creation is done. Mitt says, God is still creating. Off the same verse. BTW - I would agree with your assessment. But assessments aren't needed in actual truth.

 

Who says I am not in control of my life? Where in the Bible does it say that God controls the lives of people on this planet? It is pretty simple actually... just show where the Bible gives such information. Does a puppet have life as we humans experience life?

Search it out and find out. I am not a mind reader and I have not discussed any alleged differences between me and Mitt. Are you asking me to guess and possibly be wrong with regard to his reasoning? Hence the probability that you are merely attempting to stir up a conflict between me an Mitt... Are you now practicing the art of war known as "divide and conquer"?

So what. There you have two different opinions.

Well thank you for that assessment and agreement, however, it is neither here nor there, because neither you nor I nor anyone else is able to absolutely prove or disprove any of what is printed in the Bible. Some may think that they can prove or disprove, but that is yet to be seen.

 

http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=335268&p=1063424619#post1063424619
'Or perhaps it is just you attempting to keep an argument going which will never be solved until the end of days. Yes God is still in control.. and you still have free will.... Ain't it strange?'
You said it, God is still in control. Can't have free will, IMO, if God is in control.
What does God control if not the end game? Which does include people's lives? Does God know when you will die? How? Where? Does God know what you will eat for dinner tonight? Can you change what you eat for dinner tonight so God doesn't know?

No, merely trying to understand how a verse, explicitly says something, and a true believer in the written word can change the meaning. It is not with you, but Mitt hasn't been back to answer. So I was seeking your thoughts. As you involved yourself in the conversation.

yes

So the bible then isn't absolute truth? I was under the impression you believed it was. My mistake.

 

You nailed it....perfectly.

 

He keeps those things running that we are incapable of managing ourselves. Such things as planetary orbits, gravity, heat and light from the sun...

Nope! That one only exists in your mind and the minds of those who think like you. If you believe that God controls your life, then so be it... God controls your life. Thanks for the admission that God exists in such a way as to enable Him to control your life.

I haven't asked Him. Have you?

I used to tease with my wife on that very issue. I would tell her that I was going to die at the ripe old age of 103, being shot in the back by a jealous 26 year old dude when he catches me and his 21 year old wife in bed together. Nice fantasy for a Christian huh...? Just goes to show, I am human, have human desires, and able to make my own decisions... like having 'free will'.

If he don't, all he has to do is ask my daughter-in-law.

I would have to check with my daughter-in-law on that one.

I don't believe that either of us have 'changed the meaning' of that verse. We have merely rendered interpretations, not much different than what the translators did when they wrote it in English.

Yeppir.

Seemingly it is not an absolute truth in your mind.

I am ,,, I am also human and my understanding of some of it may be in error. So, yes you made a mistake... Presuming to know something about me that you don't know.

 

"But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases."---Psalms 115:3 NAS

We Christians will be with our Lord and so He will have company with the saved people who love Him, who will praise & worship Him for all eternity!

"Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord."---2 Corinthians 5:8 NLT

 

God has given us very clear moral absolutes and so morality is objective. But you (Jonsa) are quoted as to saying morality is subjective.

So if that is the atheist's world view then to the atheist, "Nothing is wrong unless I say it is wrong." Then atheism is ok with immorality.

Remember the serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer who was responsible for a series of gruesome murders of 17 young men from 1988 until he was caught on July 22, 1991, in Milwaukee?

Well he was an atheist who was quoted as to saying, "If a person doesn’t think there is a God to be accountable to, then—then what’s the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges?"

So it's obvious that Jeffrey determined his own moral code and was subjective about it and so you (Jonsa) don't see anything wrong with what Jeffrey did...right?

If you do find it was wrong what Jeffrey did then you are contradicting yourself, you can't say morality is subjective then object to what Jeffrey did.

On the other hand if you find nothing wrong with what Jeffrey did then you are an immoral person just as Jeffrey was.

 

And herein lies the problem with theists when it comes to morality.

Morality is absolutely subjective. For instance, it is immoral to kill, but soldiers kill all the time, in the US criminals are executed, and stand your ground allows for killing. Yet its all killing. Its immoral to own slaves, yet the god was okay with it. It is immoral to rape another, but strangely its not a commandment. Its immoral to be a paedophile, yet there is no scricture against it in the bible that I am aware of.


Jeffery Dahmer was an extremely damaged human being and its absolutely incidental he was an atheist and his pathetic rationalization for his acts is not one that any atheist I know would present.

This notion of theists that only god can deliver us our morals is repugnant to me. I view it as a total moral copout.

It says that without some supernatural being telling us what good and bad is, we would not be able to co-exist, establish laws, provide for the common good, protect the innocent and the weak, punish the guilty, feed the poor, live the golden rule etc etc etc.

Human beings are far better than that and need not rely on your version of god to deliver your versoin of morality. What about all those millions of people who don't accept your god nor "his" book? Are they all immoral? What about the ancients before christianity, like the greeks and romans and egyptians - where they all immoral? Most of their philosophers sure as hell didn't think so.

And given the amount of immoral acts where there is no mention of punishment by god in the bible, to claim objective morality given by your god seems ridiculously hypocritical.

The fact you believe he is beyond human judgement does not alter the fact that on occasion, like most humans his behaviour was immoral.

I have heard that God is justified in genocide because humans are his creation. Well my kids are my creation, but killing them would be immoral wouldn't it. I beleive that any apprently recieved morality that gives the source of that morality a free ride is wholly immoral.

 

So you have no objections of what Jeffrey did, that makes you an immoral person.

 

can you not read?

Jeffery Dahmer was an extremely damaged human being and its absolutely incidental he was an atheist and his pathetic rationalization for his acts is not one that any atheist I know would present.

Now, if you want to address the issues i raised about atheistic morality vs religious morality fine. If not, I'll just take it you got nuthin' and we can both move on.

 

What proof do you have that he was 'extremely damaged'? How was he damaged (in what manner)?

 

Who are you to say Jeffrey was an extremely damaged human being? You are quoted saying "An Atheist moral code is something the atheist must determine for themselves."

You also said, "morals are subjective" and Jeffrey's morals were subjective and he determined his own moral code. He did not believe in God and so to him what he did in his view wasn't wrong because he wasn't going to be held accountable by God since he believes God doesn't exist.

So why do you view what he did as objectionable? If to you it is objectionable then morals are not subjective, they are objective. Because we all know regardless if one is an atheist or a Christian some things are just morally wrong period!

And being that is really the case then morals are objective and not subjective as you tend to believe.

My whole point is to get you to say morals are objective and if you insist it is subjective then you can't fault the atheist Jeffrey Dahmer for what he did.

 

the guy was a psychopath and a sociopath.

Do you really actually think that he would kidnap, sexual assault, murder and EAT children BECAUSE he was an atheist?
Look up what a sociopath and psychopath are

And you want proof the guy was "damaged goods".

The idea is ludicrious.

 

Wow. According to what you are saying, then in the eyes of those psychologists and sociologists who labeled him as such, he was as such. Or was he publicly recognized as something other than a sociopath and psychopath? "Although diagnosed by psychologists and prison psychiatrists as suffering from a borderline personality disorder,[2][3][4][5] Dahmer was found to be sane at his trial."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Dahmer
Very interesting information at that site.. a must read if interested that type of personality.


How did he get labeled as an Atheist? See, that was my whole point... he is an atheist who committed such atrocities. Oh my goodness,, it looks like the atheists had a black sheep in the family, just like Christianity has or had some of the same type people in their ranks. Now, is it really necessary to play that guilt by association game?

 

Borderline personality disorder is the clinical term for sociopathy and psychopathy. Suffering from same is not generally deemed insanity in a court of law.

Nobody that I know of has claimed that atheists are not human. We are subject to the same dysfunctions as theists. to suggest otherwise is pretty damn dumb.

I certainly don't think its neccessary, but it appears as mitt ryan thinks it is.

 

Well my goodness.. Then the court was correct.. the man was sane.. he was not a crazy atheist,,, just an atheist with a bad personality. Now how bad does a personality have to be before it becomes known as a sociopath and psychopath? Does it really make a difference. The point being made is just as you have admitted above "We are subject to the same dysfunctions as theists. to suggest otherwise is pretty damn dumb."... so all of the BS about guilt by association needs to be flushed down the drain and not revitalized on this forum, IMHO.

 

I do not practice guilt by association. I practice "guilt" by actions, ideas and words.

 

Are you saying that you have never made a comment on this forum that brings into association the current day Christians with the atrocities that were alleged to have been committed by Christians in the past?

 

Yes, that is what I am saying.

I have made comments about christians using their faith and supposedly the direction of their god to wage war and commit atrocities in the past. Likewise the muslims. Likewise the hindi. Likewise the sihks. Likewise the jews. etc etc.

I have NEVER attempted to associate modern theists with the sins of their ancestors.

 

One of my very elderly neighbors had a second career after retirement teaching English and Reading in a penal institute in Wisconsin.. Dahmer was there on a charge of prostitution before they knew he was a killer. He said Dahmer had some learning disability and couldn't read... but he never imagined how sick he really was.

 

You sound surprised someone who called themselves an atheist could be a black sheep to atheists. Like it would never happen a christian could be a black sheep to christianity or any other group one wishes to be associated with.
You're just trolling on that issue. For you are better than that.