The rise of anti-science

Discussion in 'Science' started by usfan, Apr 4, 2014.

  1. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's akin to terming :flagcanada: as the Ukraine of North America.
    How bad can the analogies go?
    <sigh> :yawn:
    :blowkiss: to daughter.
    Last word is yours if y'want it.
    Remember: An Analogy Should Be Logical. Relevant. Related.
    Just stating something as analogous is not establishing truth, in :flagus: anyways


    Moi :oldman:





     
  2. 15bucket

    15bucket New Member

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    I disagree with OP. Science in this age is better than ever. The scientific advances we have made in the past 20 years are insane. Every college and university has a high tech lab or telescope. Every nation has funding for science. I think the most important thing is that the general public has more access to science than we have ever in our history. Normal people 100 years ago had no clue what an astronomical unit is. Now I'm a 16 year old high school student and I could tell you what elements are in a star by just looking at the color spectrum! You don't have to be a college genius or a philosopher to be a scientist anymore. Any average Joe can go out and collect dirt and study it, or look through a telescope and discover new things.
     
  3. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    'the particular science involved' is not the issue. The scientific method is. That is a process for arriving at verified facts, instead of an appeal to expertism, which you are doing. You imply that the status of a person in a particular field is the criteria for determining truth. This exactly illustrates the OP, & the lamenting of the rise of anti-science. Instead of facts, empirical evidence, & open scrutiny being elevated for our collective decisions, you are promoting elite status, expert mandates, & the fuzzy bigotry of hidden agendas, masked in pseudo scientific terms.
    Yes, if you can PROVE your premise, with REAL facts, & not emotional scare tactics. The successes we have had in eliminating or greatly reducing many diseases have been the RESULT of logical, systematic, SCIENTIFIC advances in bio science. Vaccinations are very effective & have made people live longer & avoid disease. I do not know what vaccines you are promoting, or which ones are in the interests of the public health to MANDATE. THAT is the issue, here. I have always preferred freedom to mandates. If some wish to pass on vaccinations, it is not a major conflict with the public's health, as the majority that DID get the vaccinations are not at risk. Your hunting analogy breaks down here. It would be more like someone hunting with blanks. The only person(s) at risk are those eschewing the vaccinations.
    I will agree that the anti science bias is readily seen in our current culture. I do not see opinions ABOUT supernatural events, or religion, or other things NOT subject to the scientific method as being evidence of an anti science bias. That is missing the point. EVERYONE has religious or philosophical OPINIONS about the supernatural. It is when they attempt to justify their opinions with half baked 'scientific' jargon or theories that the anti-science shows its face. There is no problem in science with beliefs. Science does not deal with those. It can only address empirical evidence, & repeatable, observable FACTS.

    Science cannot support the theist nor the atheist in their claims of god. Those are untested hypotheses beyond the scope of current science. They are human beliefs, & all that science can say is, 'With the current available data, there is no support for either theory'. Science can support a theory, if there is evidence (repeatable, observable, verifiable). But philosophical speculations are beyond the realm of scientific inquiry.

    The anti science bias shows itself when bold claims are made without scientific scrutiny. The data books are cooked for an agenda, instead of to arrive at scientific truth. Appeals to 'experts', instead of empirical evidence. When someone pats us on the head & says, 'Don't worry your pretty little head about this.. trust [insert authority here], i'm an expert & have omnipotent knowledge', we can know we're being propagandized, not instructed with facts.

    The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed. ~Albert Einstein
    Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth. ~Albert Einstein
    It is, in fact, nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction have not entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry. ~Albert Einstein
     
  4. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    Congratulations on your interest in science.. i hope it stays with you. But you surely realize you are an anomaly. MOST of your peers do not care about microscopes or telescopes. Back in the 50s & 60s, telescopes, microscopes, & science 'kits' were very popular gifts for budding young people. Now, it is video games & hi tech gadgets. i've not said that young people are not interested in high tech THINGS, but in the understanding of these things. ..and you are right.. the internet has brought scientific facts & evidence to the grasp of the common man. But it has also brought an explosion of disinformation. False 'truths' & bold lies are propagated & phrased in scientific jargon. So, how do we determine the credibility of the information we receive? If we are skeptical, we can use the scientific method, & critically examine the claims for logic, facts, & a compelling conclusion. If we are trusting, we can ask what some 'expert' thinks, & trust him. The former uses the scientific method, without having to be an expert in a field. Logic & facts are still valid vehicles for arriving at conclusions. But the anti-science forces do NOT tell us that, or equip us with critical thinking skills. They tell us to 'trust the experts'. This is an appeal to authority, & anti-science defined.

    Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. ~Albert Einstein
     
  5. lynx

    lynx Well-Known Member

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    Supernatural can be understood and explained by Advanced science.

    The trend is coming
     
  6. lynx

    lynx Well-Known Member

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    What happen when scientific method can't prove the event but there are thousands of witnessess from all over the world? The don't know each others, some of them are very creditable, but see the same thing.

    What will the scientists stand at this point? What's their conclusion? What will they tell the public?
     
  7. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    YES to that.
    It brings clairvoyance to mind. Synchronicity. Knowing something you could not possibly, logically know.
    For my part, I have witnesses.
    But, It will not stand up to scientific method. As if the forces involved refuse.


    BTW for a good time, check out the the news on the old Science of Tamiflu.
    And consider if it can be done with Tamiflu, it can be done for vaccines too.


    Science is not perfect and such acceptance makes it faith based.



    Moi :oldman:





    No :flagcanada:
     
  8. Poor Debater

    Poor Debater New Member

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    If UFO's are a "phemonenon", we should be able to create them in a lab.

    And as a matter of fact, we can -- and do on a regular basis. You can see it happen in any movie theater a dozen times a year. It's called "special effects" (if we want to be polite) or "hoax" (if we don't).
     
  9. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree science does not deal in nonsensical half baked supernatural ideas that are typically used to explain events in the absence of science.

    The onus is on the believer to furnish evidence that his supernatural world and inhabitants exist.
    The atheist merely says in the absence of any such evidence I do not believe it exists.

    God and angels occupy the same "intellectual opinion" space as werewolves, vampires and killer leprechauns. Are we required to prove that werewolves DONT" exist to convince the millions of believers?



    The anti science crowd shows itself daily in all manner of ways. Its just more noteable when some idiot pol stands up and claims the earth is 6,000 years old or that evolution is the work of the devil, vaccinations are bad, or wants to restrict biological research, or claims climate change is a hoax, or that fracking doesn't pollute, or that life begins at conception.
     
  10. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    as soon as the supernatural is explained and understood, it no longer is the supernatural.

    What is "advanced" science? It is a term of no meaning or relevance. Science once established is simply science. there isn't any rating system.
     
  11. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A close friend telephoned me.
    She had only said, "Hey doctor Moi"
    When I interrupted and words came out of my mouth I had not heard in my brain first,
    "You need to see a Urologist".
    Had I not interrupted she was going to ask for antibiotics for a bladder infection.
    "I Knew" she had to see a Urologist and that it was not an antibiotic problem. I Knew It !
    She wasted some months seeing smarter doctors in walk ins that gave her antibiotics that did not work.
    She finally saw a Urologist and was found to have a stone in the distal ureter where it plugs in to the kidney.
    Not common. Could have blown out the kidney. The stone was removed, she had to carry a stent to stop the ureter from closing with scar formation and she was not happy during those months.


    How Did I Know !
    How Did The Words I Had Not Thought Of Yet, Come Out Of My Mouth.

    I did not acquire this by wish. I was drafted.

    What of Science ? Am I required to deny my experiences?
    Sometimes I can "do it" over the phone with someone I have not met. Ask bobov :nana:



    Moi :oldman:




    No :flagcanada:
     
  12. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  13. lynx

    lynx Well-Known Member

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    Find an article: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/04/10/millions-dollars-wasted-on-flu-drug-tamiflu-review-finds/

    Billions dollars down to drain. Waste people's money and make someone else rich. They have not figure out the flu, this is the truth, isn't it? Because flu shots don't really work that well either. I got sick from a co-worker who got the shot couple years ago. From the vaccinate , not from the actual disease itself. She got it from the vaccine directly, I got it from the vaccine indirectly, but we both didn't get it from the disease itself.
    And it is a myth that if you get vaccinated, you won't give the disease to somebody else. At least in my case, it's not true.

    I don't need faith to believe science is not perfect, why do you?
     
  14. lynx

    lynx Well-Known Member

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    Don't make fun of it. It's a true phenomenon.
     
  15. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You probably just got the flu and so did your friend because flu shots don't always protect you from some other strain it is not designed for. I never get the shot and won't until I am in a susceptible group and that will be old age.
     
  16. lynx

    lynx Well-Known Member

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    Does not matter what should it called. What matter is we finally know what it is and understand it. And realize it exists and real.

    lol at your second statement. The advanced science is science knowledge that are not from human but from a much more intelligent sources that truly understand the universe, the earth, and everything else.
     
  17. lynx

    lynx Well-Known Member

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    I didn't get sick for years until my co-worker gave it to me. She didn't get sick either until she got the flu shot. It seems to me the flu vaccine was the problem. I don't really trust it. I say you do the right thing not getting the shot, wait as long as you can till you have to in your old age. Don't let people pressure you in taking it , they will tell you it's public safety. Oh! really, the vaccine don't really work and it can be the problem and cause from the start.
     
  18. lynx

    lynx Well-Known Member

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  19. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    My GF works in a Hospital and is required to get it. I don't trust shooting foreign material in my system. You never know what can happen later. For instance, there are a lot of Vietnam Vets walking around now with Hepatitis C from the shots they got before they went overseas. They didn't know much about Hep C until about 1993 and anyone even getting a blood transfusion before that had a 50/50 chance of getting it.

    I can suffer the flu and will wait until I am old and decrepit before I try one.

    Funny thing though, I am pretty sure I got H1N1 in Raleigh NC back when it hit the shores in 2009. Weirdest flu I have ever had. Laying in bed I could feel it moving through my lungs. Funny thing is, I have not gotten the flu or been sick since.
     
  20. lynx

    lynx Well-Known Member

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    I know, I also heard many story about the vets too. It's horrible. If I can avoid any vaccination, I will. When I was little I was forced to take smallpox vaccine which they use cowpox in vaccine and stay in your body forever. I wish it wasn't mandated and I could avoid it. Your H1N1 experience is very interesting, not only didn't kill you and help you build virus against any flu. And they moved in your lungs, this is something. May be after a flight, your body and the H1N1 virus settle to a peace agreement and decided to co-exist become an alliance, and together fight off any other flu invaders.

    Human body is amazing.
     
  21. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It matters, because should science "discover" the supernatural world, it become part of the natural one.

    So far, despite thousands of scientific inquiries, not a shred of evidence of any supernatural entity, power or place has been found.


    So aliens are sharing their knowledge with us. How exactly? Which Aliens? Are they christians? What have they shared? what do they hope to get out of this sharing?

    Sorry but you really should be hanging out in the conspiracy section, where bat poop crazy notions of aliens infiltrating our civilization are readily accepted.
     
  22. bobov

    bobov New Member

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    Moi saved my life by correctly diagnosing my pneumonia from the sound of my voice on the phone. My voice betrayed a severe respiratory infection. I'm not sure how Moi could have known about a stone in a ureter the same way, but his gift is undeniable.
     
  23. Herby

    Herby Active Member Past Donor

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    Thank you for that great link in an otherwise questionable thread. :)

    I recommend it to anyone interested in some real shortcomings of science today.

    I think another reasonable manner to sceptically examine a claim is to ask some expert about it. The conclusion, however, is not the important part here. You need to ask and study until you understand how he arrived at that conclusion. Armed with that understanding, you have the ability to properly question the claim and maybe arrive at a different conclusion. Unfortunately, that often turns out to be a rather laborious process that very few are willing to go through.

    Do you think that it's possible for a working man or woman to sceptically examine all sorts of claims in all sorts of fields? That's the impression I got after reading your posts. I think that's impossible due to time constraints. Usually, things get complicated rather quickly and some provisional trust in established knowledge (hopefully true, but possibly wrong) is necessary for practical reasons.
     
  24. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Oh How Modest of you. Share that it wasn't a shot in the butt and go home type illness.
    Give them the blow by blow and the brush with mortality.
    I am surprised I got you to call 911 and not try get to an ER on your own power. Or did you.
    And :nana: too. YOU Owe ME ! Or am I responsible for You now?
    Or per Game of Thrones to "we" owe the Red God, one.

    POINT: A gift. Clairvoyance. Not scientific but experience. What am I to do. I was drafted.
    I could share other, spooky experiences. And all so anti Science because it cannot be tested.
    It refuses. Yet so many experiences.

    Conclusion: Something other than the physical, world of science.



    Herby, DEAR
    Those of us of Science (BSc Biological Sciences, Magna Cum Laude, Special Honors, M.D.) are often dismayed at the dogmatism and faith based attitudes that dominate Sciences.
    If not the production of Science that is profit based and motivated, ie. Tamiflu. Search the News on T.

    Science has to clean its' own house of faith followers, like Cholesterol in your mouth becomes cholesterol in your blood.
    There is a GI system and liver in between. Simply, Not True.
    I can lower a patients cholesterol with Atkins if they cooperate, faster than any other modality I experienced.
    (Carbs interfere with cholesterol excretion. Your own body made cholesterol excretion is gummed up by carbs.)
    It really, really bothered my colleagues I was so successful at improving blood fats by a heretical diet.
    If they thought, they would remember their Medical Physiology and see what was going on.
    But, they chose the easy path of following the light of faith/science - don'tchyasee?

    I shared this thread with a GP M.D. friend who I have known since college in the late sixties.
    He sees it too. Like tell me something I don't know.
    If you are a scientist with a contrary theory, you are treated with bias, not - "let's discuss it".

    And most Science is just "whore" science anyways, so - - go figure why people have adopted an
    anti Science bias. Innately, they know something is not right. Like feeding children low cholesterol diets.
    And all those damned mandatory vaccines and the rise of autism in parallel.
    Like the Black Community, it falls on the Science Community to get its act together for truthiness sake.


    Moi :oldman:




    No :flagcanada:
    They would have never gotten Insulin without an American on board !





    Autism is a pediatric variant of Guillain Barre Syndrome,
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillain%E2%80%93Barr%C3%A9_syndrome
    variant because children have no or less of a Blood Brain Barrier. It may be evoked by a native infection such as a cold, or an induced immune response such as a vaccination.
    This Has Never Been Studied.
    Remember, YOU heard it from Moi, first.
    Acknowledging the truth could hurt someone's profits.
     
  25. Herby

    Herby Active Member Past Donor

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    Moi, I am dismayed at dogmatism and faith based attitudes too. To be fair, those problems are far more common in areas other than science though. An nice example is politics, which has often very little to do with rational solutions to real problems, but prefers to repeat the same old recipes without giving it any thought at all.

    Science is actually designed to eradicate dogmatism. In practice with some bad incentives and the hunt for funding, this doesn't work out perfectly, of course, but in the long run science tends to correct itself. Medicine is traditionally a playground for all sorts of nonsense, but improvements have been made in the past. If you can show with a reasonable amount of rigor that your heretical diet produces better results than other alternatives, you're doing science.

    From my (uninformed) perspective, everyone claims completely contradictory stuff anyway when it comes to nutrition. That's why I go with the "a bit of everything since I don't care" diet. That way I can do this right and wrong at the same time.
     

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