Challenge for Christians: disprove evolution and a 6000 year old earth

How odd that prominent defenders of the theory, like Gould, Woodruff, Eldredge, Flannery, and Smith have admitted that there is no proof.

"The evolutionary trees in our textbooks have data only at the tips and nodes of their branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of fossils." Stephen Jay Gould, "The Panda's Thumb," "More Reflections In Natural History," W. W. Norton NY, 1992, 181.

Stick with the informatics models - or rely on faith in your beliefs.

 

I have to sign off. Will check you tomorrow. Consider the everything from nothing vs everything from god alternative. Both seem supernatural to me - which requires the bigger leap of faith to believe?

 

That's a real stretch of an interpretation. Its pretty clear he is saying there is an extreme gap in the data, its mostly inference and "trade secret". If that quote is some sort of proof of evolution, you have shot yourself down and this debate is over.

 

Consider staying on topic.

 

Gould's whole argument is that they are so rare and sporadic that they have not been found. He, and the other ablest defenders of the theory admit that they have found none.

"The evolutionary trees in our textbooks have data only at the tips and nodes of their branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of fossils." Stephen Jay Gould, "The Panda's Thumb," "More Reflections In Natural History," W. W. Norton NY, 1992, 181.

 

It was a topic raised by Alpha - see posts re evidence and beliefs. This relates to the tendency of many religious believers to reject Darwin, Gould etc on faith. I thought he might like to address it. Have enjoyed this discussion. Will check the thread tomorrow

 

I never said it was a lot (relative to all the life forms that have ever existed), but what is there clearly includes transitional forms. It was stated earlier that there were none. The word "rarity" alone contradicts this. So yes, the debate may well be over.

 

that's a no brainer. the idea that the universe was created by a magical jewish man in the sky is about as worthy as the unicorn and disco rainbow. that the universe has probably always existed in one form or another is far less of a leap.

further, why would a rational, 21stC person consider magic sky men? why not ask us to consider the disco rainbow?

 

It was a topic raised by you.
post # 195
Originally Posted by Ddyad
"Not responsive. Are you familiar with the prime mover unmoved argument?"

 

How will they do that?

 

Definite evidence. I want to see evolution, just how atheists want to see God.

I mean, they are always arguing that believers believe in 2000 year old material. Well, atheists believe in hundreds of thousands of year old material too.

 

Was Aristotle thinking of a "magical Jewish man in the sky" when he discussed the concept of the prime mover unmoved?

Can you refute Aristotle's argument?

 

Gould et al believe that fossils of transitional species must exist, and explain the inability to find any with a theory that are very few examples. None have been found - so far.

Hence: "The evolutionary trees in our textbooks have data only at the tips and nodes of their branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of fossils." Stephen Jay Gould, "The Panda's Thumb," "More Reflections In Natural History," W. W. Norton NY, 1992, 181.

 

See Alpha post # 169 re faith and evidence. May have been touched on earlier.

 

I think they are just messing with you because of a now rather common ingrained hostility to religion generally - and especially Christianity.

Religious people admit they have to take a leap of faith from incomplete evidence. You may have noticed that most atheists are very reluctant to admit that they do not *know* it all.

OTH, I am very humble.

 

If I have to define "evidence for you" then you are either playing games or are unwilling to accept anything other then your religious explanations. It wouldn't hurt you or be considered unfaithful to your faith if you actually spend some time educating yourself on evolution.

 

Eminent British biologist John Maynard Smith on Stephen Jay Gould:
"The evolutionary biologists with whom I have discussed his work tend to see him as a man whose ideas are so confused as to be hardly worth bothering with, but as one who should not be publicly criticized because he is at least on our side against the creationists.”

 

Paleontologists know of many detailed examples of fossils intermediate in form between various taxonomic groups.

 

The debate is over.

Unfortunately like a deer that has just been shot but because of the massive amount of adrenaline surging through it's blood stream the deer does not even know that it's dead.

The same thing with those who attempt to say evolution is not a fact.

Their argument has been long dead even though they still twitch with ideological rigor-mortise.

AboveAlpha

 

Just because you lack the ability to understand evolution does not mean others are so limited. Those who are in the position to know and review the data have explained evolution to the point that it is mostly considered fact. You seem so infused with God juice that there is no room for anything else...simply put, you are lost to education.

 

The whole.....Something created from nothing....argument is a fallacy.

I an explain what happened but some people just might not understand it.

The Big Bang and all the Quanta explosively ejected from a single point is what developed this Universe of ours and even space-time did not exist before this ejection.

The singularity point of ejection is known as a WHITE HOLE.

Every White Hole is connected to a BLACK HOLE....and in this case the White Hole that ejected all Quanta to create our Universe was connected to a Black Hole existing in another Divergent Universal State of Reality where all Quanta had been sucked into the Black Hole that achieved such a level of mass and gravitic effect that the Universal Space-Time Geometry and Dimentionality in that collapsed Universe could not support that immense amount of mass at a single point.

The Black Hole ripped through the membrane fabric of the separation of Alternate Divergent Universal States of Reality and a White Hole was generated outside these Divergent Universes creating a new Alternate Divergent Universal State of Reality which is our Universe which is but one of an infinite in number set of Universes in the Multiverse.

How are we very sure a Multiverse exists?

Because we have developed FUNCTIONAL APPLICATIONS using Quantum Mechanics which is intrinsically tied to Multiversal Theory as Multiversal Theory is a much more expanded and complex version of Many Worlds Theory as The Many Worlds Theory is too limited to account for Quantum Mechanics.

Thus the Quanta that was explosively ejected from a White Hole that was connected to a Black Hole in another Divergent Universal State of Reality is what developed our Universal Reality.

This means our Universal Space-Time and all Matter and Energy within it did not come from nothing.

The argument by hardcore creationists that something cannot come from nothing does not apply to the development of our universal reality as our Universe did come from something.

AboveAlpha

 

Adaptive evolution within species is not at issue. From this fact it is possible to infer that new species have evolved. So far paleontologists have not found a single example of a transitional species to prove they have existed.

"An astonishing fact about Charles Darwin's theory of evolution is that it was conceived in the absence of two major kinds of support that would have been helpful to it—evidence from the then meager fossil record and knowledge of the mechanism of inheritance." Tim Flannery, Reviewing Stephen J. Gould's "The Structures of Evolutionary Theory", Belknap Press/Harvard University Press, NYR Books, Volume 49, Number 9 · May 23, 2002.

The fossil record is no longer "meager".

 

I think that Goomba should understand that the realities of evolution both Quantum Evolution which is responsible for the development of our Universe and everything in it including life.....and Biological Evolution which is a sub-form of Quantum Evolution responsible for the development of all life in the Universe........are not things which contradict someone who might believe in a GOD.

It does contradict aspects of RELIGION as it's obvious that the Earth is old in the extreme at about 4.54 Billion years old and our Universe is over 13 Billion years old....and it's also blatantly obvious that the things written in the Koran, Bible and Tanakh detailing how the Earth and Universe were created is just the best way that ancient man could explain their development given the fact that ancient man knew so little about such things.

It is foolish and ignorant in the EXTREME for anyone to believe any word for word explanation from any religious text detailing the creation of heaven and earth.

HOWEVER.....since it cannot be proven either way whether a GOD or GODS exist....I see no problem with a person who has faith that such a GOD or GODS might exist.

But what I do have a problem with is anyone so ignorant to so ridiculously refuse to understand the Universal and Multiversal mechanisms that led to the development of our Universe...or Space-Time Geomentry....and all Matter and Energy within including LIFE.

AboveAlpha

 

"all the Quanta explosively ejected from a single point"

Well, that is pretty consistent with Dante's described vision. Begs the question: "point" of what? Beatrice's slipper?

 

I have a degree specific to Particle Physics and I was for a time an Assistant Professor at a world renown Massachusetts based higher learning institute where I helped develop Multiversal Models as the Many Worlds Theory is just too limited to account for Quantum Mechanics.

As far as your question understand that there was no existing Space-Time prior to the generation of the White Hole and the ejection of Quanta from it.

All Matter is completely comprised of Quantum Particle/Wave Forms of Energy thus because of the massive gravitic effect that ripped open the very fabric of the Universal Space-Time Dimentionality existing in the collapsed Universe that itself had collapsed down to but a single point known as a SINGULARITY.....well the amount of Mass and Gravitic effect generated at this single point ripped open the Membrane that separates all Divergent Universal Realities and ejected the Quanta outside that membrane to generate a new Divergent Universal Reality.

There are infinite Divergent Universal States and there are infinite versions of you and I and everyone and everything else.

In order for their to be CAUSALITY....every possible outcome and cause and effect MUST EXIST thus an alternate divergent universal state of reality MUST EXIST FOR EACH POSSIBILITY.

AboveAlpha