Let's start with smoking because the health of We the People is something that impacts the nation as a whole. Yes, the state should be concerned if it has to provide expensive healthcare for smokers who can no longer work because of ill health. No, the state should not prohibit smoking any more than it should not be outlawing marijuana but it has every right to regulate it. If the state wants to promote birth control then it has the right to do so but not at the expense of brainwashing women into believing that they must not have an abortion. The line is drawn when the state decides what kinds of medical services someone should be denied.
Who said anything about the state doing anything? I said society ie the people would have to be the ones to change on the issue of abortion. The whole point is the state is too powerful and is too much in people's lives. The Prolife folks are trying to use FORCE by wanting the government to dictate to women that they cannot have an abortion. This is wrong. Women have to decide for themselves that abortion is wrong. That is why the prolife groups need to switch their perspective. They need to look at the underlying causes of the thing they dislike and correct those issues. Only then will they see a reduction in the number of abortions.
You did in post #100 above. If you say that the anti-abortionists need to abandon trying to use the state to outlaw abortion then we are on the same page. One of the most effective ways to reduce the incidence of abortion is to provide the best (and most expensive) means of contraception to women in the highest risk groups. The Colorado study saw a drop of 42% of unintended pregnancies. https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/sites/default/files/HPF_FP_UP-Reducing-Abortion.pdf The St Louis study saw even better results in the drop of abortion rates amongst the highest at risk group. https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/access-to-free-birth-control-reduces-abortion-rates/ So yes, if anti-abortionists want to start funding this type of birth control to women nationwide then more power to them.
Yes that is what I have been saying the whole time. I do not like abortion. I think it is wrong on many levels. I also think outlawing it is wrong on many levels. So it is better to put efforts in preventing the need for abortions not outlawing them.
ITT: Arbitrary connections between facts and normative views. I believe in a culture that values human life. Save for exceptional circumstances, such as if the mother's life is threatened or if she was raped, I think abortion should be illegal from conception.
I believe in a culture that values persons (we are not so far apart). When pro-life advocates pretend that a developing human body is already a person, they place an unjustified burden on the pregnant woman, her family, and society. She should be able to get an abortion, legally, at any time prior to birth.
Another Rightwing "push-poll" where you have to accept his paradigm on any answer you give. Sounds like Rasmussen or Fox News may have a new trainee.
In that case (just my values against yours) each pregnant woman should be free of government interference to decide for herself.
Then what is your evidence to convince the government that personhood begins at conception? Note that arms and legs and heart (and even an organized cluster of brain cells) are not evidence of personhood. If they were, it would be illegal for the hospital to stop feeding a living human body whose associated cerebrum has ceased to function.
My argument for preventing abortion doesn't rely on defining personhood at this or that point. Like I said from the beginning, I believe in a culture that values human life, and that begins at conception. How to convince the "government" is a whole separate topic.
But if you try and use the government to stop abortions you are using force because that is the only true power of government. As such you are standing opposite of the very idea of respecting life. Legislating morality is a good way to hurt more people then you help.
It's not the only power of government, but yes it's the most important. It's a non-sequitur to say that it disrespects life. Quite the contrary. Violence is needed to support the institutions of civilization, such as private property. All legislation is action, is normative, is appealing to a "morality". If you're not legislating morality, then you're not legislating anything at all.
Not legislating anything is the dream. Government should be there to protect private property, enforce contracts, and provide for the common defense. Not getting involved in peoples bodies. Let society dictate.
If "life" begins at conception then how do you explain the number of "early natural abortions" because of failure to implant correctly??
Let's assume a woman who is studying medicine and neurology at the university finds herself with an unexpected pregnancy. She and her husband know they do not have the resources to start a family right now. She knows from her studies that it is impossible for the fetus to have a meaningful thought before birth (i.e. no person in the womb). From her perspective, the logical course of action is to get an abortion. Would you try to convince her not to get an abortion? If so, how?
What kind of poll is this? 1. Life doesn't begin before birth. 2. Life doesn't begin at birth. It's a little more complicated than that lol... Geez.
I don't see how this is a relevant question. It would simply be illegal to have an abortion under such circumstances. - - - Updated - - - Living things can die.
I'm not sure if the angle you're playing towards is making a distinction between "law" and "legislation" (which is fair enough). But assuming you're not, laws enforcing private property etc are very much involved with the affairs of people.
OK...just to show you how off you are as far as Human Life begins at conception... Human Life exists BEFORE conception. The Sperm and Egg are ALIVE....and they are Human. The fact is a HUMAN BEING does not exist at conception. A Human Being is defined as a Multi-cellular....Multi-SPECIES bio-mechanical entity. This is because 90% of the cells in a Human Being are not human cells. A Human Being has a huge number of different cells of different species living in a symbiotic relationship with human cells and without them a person could not live. AA
This is all irrelevant Sperm and egg cells on their own don't create a new, unique set of DNA capable of becoming a baby human. A fertilized egg does have this.
The problem as I see it is this (and I offer it as a thought experiment): say that tomorrow, abortion was made illegal across the United States. What would that do? Would it stop women from having abortions? No it wouldn't, it would push the practice underground and make it much more dangerous for the woman seeking to terminate her pregnancy. (Look back at what happened in the years prior to the legalization of abortion to see what I mean). So while I have deep concerns over the practice and the mental state of the women who seek it out, I also recognize the fact that "natural" abortions occur so frequently that we have a term for it: miscarriage. Abortion is an extremely tough, extremely personal issue, but I'd have to go with keeping the medical practice legal, if for no other reason than promoting public safety. But I'd definitely have it left to the states to deal with the details/restrictions.
A fertilized egg is not even a potential human being until it implants itself in the uterine wall. And by the way...Geneticists can now take any cell for either a man or woman's body....turn it into a stem cell line....turn the stem cells into egg and sperm cells....fertilize an egg....then implant it into an artificial uterine wall in an artificial womb and then birth a child. This means that ANY HUMAN CELL....is a potential human being. Since a person loses thousands of cells daily....and we lose many cells every time we defecate....does this mean the Pro-Life people will run around at fairs around Porto-Potties carrying signs that say...."It's not a piece of S#!#...it's a CHILD!!" Is that your argument? A Fertilized Egg is NOT a Human Being. AA
