Foreign Involvement in Presidential Elections

Discussion in 'Elections & Campaigns' started by Shiva_TD, Jan 11, 2017.

  1. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    I'll assume that almost everyone is aware of the allegations of Russian involvement in the 2016 US Presidential election where the focus was to assist Donald Trump become president. Some (Republicans) are denying that but it's unquestionably true that illegally obtained emails were released to the media that harmed Hillary Clinton to some degree although evidence that the influence was enough to change the election results is non-existent. All we know is that illegal obtained emails that were publically exposed corrupted the 2016 Presidential election to some degree and that all of the US intelligence agencies are claiming that the evidence exists that the Russians were responsible.

    I believe that we can all state that foreign involvement in the domestic process for electing a president is wrong on all levels regardless of whether we believe that the Russians were involved in the 2016 US Presidential Election.

    If that is the belief, and arguably it is for most Americans, then we need to take a minute and think back a little historically.

    http://articles.latimes.com/1996-07-09/news/mn-22423_1_boris-yeltsin

    So in 1996 the political team that worked for Republican Gov Pete Wilson went to Russia and through an intermediator, Yeltsin's daughter Tatyana Dyachenko, secretly provided advice to assist Boris Yeltsin win the election. This does not imply that the possible Russian involvement in our election somehow becomes magically acceptable but instead establishes that what the Republican political team did in assisting Boris Yeltsin in 1996 was wrong.

    This is a problem with many of the "positions" the US establishes that are unquestionable correct are compromised because we violate those same position making us hypocrites in he eyes of others.

    "Do as I say, not as I do" has never been a viable policy.
     
  2. Penrod

    Penrod Well-Known Member

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    Better tell that to Obama who has no problem involving himself and us in the domestic elections in Israel
     
  3. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ray McGovern, retired CIA says since ww2 we have interfered in 61 foreign elections. But it is ok for us to do it, but just no one else. For we are entitled as americans. We never put the shoe on the other foot. That is our problem, and our hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is never GOOD, in fact it is BAD. We seem to delight in being BAD. Isn't this typical evil empire behavior? All evil empires have done this of course. While its citizens pay no mind to it. For only our interests matter, yet hardly has our hypocrisy even been in the interest of the average American. But in the interests of our elites. Read Confessions of an Economic Hit Man. For MSM will never mention John Perkins.
     
  4. Penrod

    Penrod Well-Known Member

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    Just as i find it amusing that we get upset that people hack us or spy on us, like we dont do the same
     
  5. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    I'd be glad to if you can provide link to any direct involvement by the US either by our government or by any of our political parties. It's bad enough that I believe (but can't prove) that there are Americans providing campaign funding to Israeli politicians.

    My biggest concern with Israel from an American perspective is that Donald (ignorant on all subjects) Trump and the GOP are going to flush 68 years of bipartisan foreign policy down the toilet but doing stupid things like moving the US Embassy to Jerusalem that we haven't done because the Annexation of Jerusalem has been rejected by every US president (and the United Nations) or even worse by not exerting the full power of the United States to actually try to get Israel to start removing it's Israeli settlements in the West Bank and E Jerusalem because those settlements are illegal and are classified as war crimes and crimes against humanity under international law.

    When is the United States going to do what right with Israel and for Israel. Only the two-state solution based upon the pre-196u7 Israeli borders ends not just the grounds for hostility by the Palestinians against Israel but it also end the foundation for the hostility by the other Arab and Muslim countries. If Republicans are afraid of the threat Iran represents to Israel then the two-state solution based upon the pre-1967 Israeli borders ENDS that hostility.

    Of course Trump and some of the other potato head Republicans are so ignorant of the issues with Israel that they don't understand the fundamental problem
     
  6. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    You know what's interesting is that I don't find a problem per se with Russia hacking the Democrats email.

    My problem is with the US media that published the illegally obtained emails knowing full well that the publication would corrupt the election. It's one thing if "mud" from both parties is covered in the media but when it's all one-sided then it really does corrupt the election process.
     
  7. liberalminority

    liberalminority Well-Known Member

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    i think foreign involvement in elections is only bad if it is to destabilize weaker countries for money.

    while russia acts in its own interests for money, it did not destabilize America in its involvement of American elections.

    America and Russia also have a special relationship since they are two strong countries where military conflict means mutually assured destruction, so their opinion in our elections is just as important as our opinion in their elections.
     
  8. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Ukrainian efforts to sabotage Trump backfire

    Donald Trump wasn’t the only presidential candidate whose campaign was boosted by officials of a former Soviet bloc country.

    Ukrainian government officials tried to help Hillary Clinton and undermine Trump by publicly questioning his fitness for office. They also disseminated documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggested they were investigating the matter, only to back away after the election. And they helped Clinton’s allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisers, a Politico investigation found.

    A Ukrainian-American operative who was consulting for the Democratic National Committee met with top officials in the Ukrainian Embassy in Washington in an effort to expose ties between Trump, top campaign aide Paul Manafort and Russia, according to people with direct knowledge of the situation.

    The Ukrainian efforts had an impact in the race, helping to force Manafort’s resignation and advancing the narrative that Trump’s campaign was deeply connected to Ukraine’s foe to the east, Russia. But they were far less concerted or centrally directed than Russia’s alleged hacking and dissemination of Democratic emails.
     
  9. lemmiwinx

    lemmiwinx Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not only did Democrats get involved in Russian politics in the 1990's they bragged about it. Bill Clinton and Boris Yeltsin were best buds but that was cool back then.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. AnnaNoblesse

    AnnaNoblesse New Member

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    I wonder why Putin doesn't bring up that information when America mentions Russian interference in our election. I think I remember him referring to it once but that was it.
     
  11. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    And to those on the receiving side it is considered an act of war. That hasn't changed.

    Note that Trump finally admitted that the Russians did it.
     
  12. Penrod

    Penrod Well-Known Member

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    Would you like some more ?
     
  13. Penrod

    Penrod Well-Known Member

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    So then you would have been against the Watergate scandal as it was stolen material and should never have been printed

    To try to say the media was on Trumps side is one of the funniest things Ive ever heard here
     
  14. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    For whatever reason the links provided failed to work so I've only got this quotation to go by.

    I know of the work done by OneVoice that is an international organization dedicated to a peaceful resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as noted on their website:

    http://www.onevoicemovement.org/history

    While promoting the peaceful resolution to the conflict based upon a fair and equitable two-state solution, a goal of the United States expressly established in UN Security Council Resolution 242 that the US supported in 1967, there would certainly be the necessity to voter database especially in Israel because the Palestinians haven't been able to vote in Israeli elections even though they've been subjected to Israel authority since 1967. they also need a voter base of Palestinians to support the Palestinian Authority that is already fully committed to the goal of OneVoice and more specifically to the goal supported by the United States and the United Nations Security Council. A significant percentage of Israeli citizens already support the two-state solution but they're still a minority so convincing more Israeli citizens to support the two-state solution obviously requires political activists that are trained as well as a strategic plan that could uses the services of an exceptionally good political consulting firm.

    So everything is above board in addressing the organizational aspects of OneVoice in Israel and Palestine that would be supplemental to the political opinion dissemination in support of the two-state solution as well as rebuttals to those that oppose a peaceful resolution based upon a fair two-state solution and rebuttal to demands that are unnecessary for a peaceful resolution. In all of this OneVoice would be performing a service advancing the position of both the United States that has remained unchanged since 1967 and supported by both Republican and Democratic administration.

    So that basically leave us with comment, "all of which set the stage for an anti-Netanyahu campaign." This is rather baffling because Netanyahu is the prime minister and the prime minister isn't elected. The prime minister is usually the leader of the largest party in the governing coalition and Netanyahu is the Chairman of the Likud party.

    I don't see how a "campaign" can be created against Netanyahu when his position is completely unrelated to anything that the Israel people have a say in once the election of the Knesset is complete and the people don't even vote for candidates but instead vote for the political party in Israel and representation of the party is based upon proportional vote. Netanyahu, as the Chairman of the Likud party is at the top of the party candidate list and it's impossible to prevent him from being elected.

    So I'm not sure what kind of "campaign" they might be referring to and even more puzzling is that Netanyahu has expressed support for a fair two-state solution in general. The only problem with Netanyahu personal opinion is that he's repeatedly states that the territorial issue is open to voluntary negotiation and the Palestinians have simply held to the position of "Israel in the Israeli territory and Palestine in the Palestinian territory" so there's nothing to negotiate when it comes to territory.

    Israel does not now, nor has it ever had, any claim to any of the Palestinian territory.... but I would suggest that there's one territorial issue Israel could bring up that the Palestinians might be willing to consider. Israel could propose that Palestinians give up their claim to East Jerusalem and in return Israel would give up it's claim to West Jerusalem so that Jerusalem could become the "international city" that was recommended by the United Nations General Assembly in Resolution 181. This could have common support between both Israel and Palestine as both would benefit from Jerusalem being an International City as opposed to a divided city. They'd have to agree on how it would be administered and who would provide security but I'm sure the could find common ground on those issues or other minor issues that could come up. If Netanyahu wants to talk "territory" this is about the only territorial issue that he has any foundation to present to the Palestinians. He sure as hell can't use the threat of not withdrawing the Israeli military from Palestine for any territorial issues unless the Palestinians are demanding a part of Israel as a condition for peace but they're not.

    Netanyahu has also insisted that the nation of Palestine must be a demilitarized nation (i.e. have no military capable of attacking Israel) to ensure nation security for Israel. I believe the Palestinians actually welcomed this condition because it solves numerous problems for them. The Palestinian response was, "Oh hell yes, but we want US lead NATO forces to be stationed throughout the state of Palestine and we want them to stay indefinitely to not only insure Israel's security from a possible invasion but to also ensure that there are no Palestinians committing any act of aggression against Israel by launching rockets from the state of Palestine into Israel. They point out that this was a significant problem in Gaza because there was no one to prevent Hamas from attacking Israel. Of course this is all secondary to the fact that US lead NATO forces would also prevent a future invasion of Palestine that the Palestinians obviously have justification to fear considering the aggressive military behavior of Israel in the past.

    Last but not least is that Netanyahu imposed a condition that the Palestinians can't comply with. Not because they wouldn't be willing to comply but instead it's a condition they don't have the authority to comply with. Netanyahu insists that the Palestinians recognize a "Jewish State of Israel" but the Palestinians are limited to recognizing the "Sovereign State of Israel" because the nature of the state (i.e. Jewish) is a component of the "sovereignty" reserved exclusively for the Israeli people to decide. The people of Israel can call themselves the "Purple People" if they choose because only they have that sovereign right while no one else has the authority to call them anything except the People of Israel.

    In any case OneVoice does the United States a great service by addressing these different issues that are effectively blocking the peaceful two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

    I don't see anything inappropriate about the US providing funds to OneVoice that is advancing not just our best interests as a nation but that is also advancing the mutual best interests of both Israel and Palestine as well. The claim that the some of the funds, without the US government's knowledge, were used for or against a specific candidate don't even fit with the election processes in Israel.

    PS - Like you I'm concerned about the retention of records but the elephant in the living room is the former Bush Administration where apparently 22 million government emails were stored on the RNC private server that was widely used by the Bush Administration and somehow those emails have "gone missing" and have not been recovered. They cover some very critical time in American history including the days leading up to the Invasion of Iraq and the firing of US attorney's by the Bush Administration.
     
  15. Penrod

    Penrod Well-Known Member

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    So your Basically saying its ok when we do it. Most of it is you liberal opinion.

    The best interest in the region is for the UN and everyone else to get the hell out and let the two parties resolve the issue. The only thing stopping the Palestinians from condescending is backers like you. Losers do not make the terms of peace
     
  16. TrackerSam

    TrackerSam Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    On the plus side, George Soros lost a billion dollars so he might not be interfering for a while.
     
  17. Penrod

    Penrod Well-Known Member

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    They sure dont sound impartial to me.

    Its the Palestinians who are trying to claim Israeli territory. They like you and the UN have it all backwards
     
  18. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    The Watergate break-in involved illegal wiretapping (phone tapping) of the Democrats offices at the Watergate. I don't recall seeing any documents revealing what information was obtained but there might have been. The Republican wiretapping itself. was certainly newsworthy because it was illegal but nothing was illegal about what the Democratic leadership was involved in during the Democratic primary. The only thing illegal related to the Democrats emails was that they were obtained illegally.

    In spite of revelations following the Watergate break-in all of which related to criminal activities, including the fact that it was a coordinated effort by the Committee to Re-elect the President, Nixon was never linked to it in any manner prior to the election and it didn't cause him seem to adversely effect his election. The actual break-in wasn't even the scandal. It was Richard Nixon's abuse of power in obstructing the investigation that turned out to be the Watergate Scandal and that wasn't revealed until well after the election.

    It's not so much that the media was on Trump's side but instead that the media, in attempting to be neutral, simply over-looked virtually all of the reasons that Donald Trump was unfit to hold office and not qualified to hold office. The only place I actually saw this addressed was by the highly qualified conservative editorial board across the nation. When I read the Arizona Republics editorial board's candidate comparison they clearly laid out the case that Donald Trump has serious mental disorders that we witness daily as well as lacking any qualifications to be president it was a scathing report two-page report. This was from conservatives on a newspaper that had never supported a Democrat for president since it was founded in 1890 and the editors flatly admitted that while the opposed virtually all of Hillary Clinton's political agenda and policies that she was qualified while Donald Trump was not.

    The main stream media failed miserably when it came to the necessity to point out that Trump's behavior was clearly reflective of an extreme narcissistic personality disorder. While mental health professionals are prohibited by their own ethics standards from making this statement the press is not under that restriction and the press failed. The main stream media failed to repeatedly point out that "money does NOT indicate executive ability" and that base upon the criteria of "good v bad executives" Donald Trump has always been one of the worst executives in the United States. He was actually good on the Apprentice because he was such a horrible executive. I doubt that there's even one independent board of directors in any corporation in the United States that would appoint Donald Trump to an executive position in the corporation.

    Yes, the media did "fact check" Donald Trump and that consistently reflected that Donald Trump was completely ignorant about virtually everything he discussed. His supporters didn't seem to care because, like the best of con men, Trump fed their prejudice as opposed to telling the truth because he didn't know the truth but he knew their prejudice. Given the choice of believing Trump that mirrored their prejudice or believing the facts the supporters always accepted the "lie" because they didn't want admit they were wrong also.

    No, the media didn't "support Trump" but it failed the American public by not addressing those attributes of Donald Trump that revealed how unfit and unqualified he really is.

    Here's the deal, forget everything else about Donald Trump and just pay attention to what he does. He attacks anyone for the most petty of reasons constantly. He never admits he's wrong even when we have it on video tape when he says one thing one day and then denies he said it the next. He takes credit for the accomplishments of others and even claims success when he fails.

    If you just watch Donald Trump seriously you will notice that there's something very strange in his behavior. There's something that's just not right. Don't worry about his policies, just pay attention to his behavior because it soon becomes evident that Donald Trump is not a normal person because he does really strange things that no one else we can think of would ever do.

    After watching Donald Trump for any period of time it's unavoidable to come to any other conclusion except he's seriously mentally ill. I'm not condemning him for it but he does need help because his behavior is irrational.

    And the main stream media failed to warn the American people as many times as necessary that Donald Trump is suffering from a serious mental illness and that places not just the United States but the entire world in great jeopardy.

    This is a man that's so mentally unstable that he arguably represents a greater threat of nuclear war than N Korea and we elected him to the office where, without anyone being able to stop him, he could start that nuclear war.
     
  19. Penrod

    Penrod Well-Known Member

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    It was more about the cover up not the crime
    Im talking about Deep Throat who leaked the info about the cover up. If the FBI had discovered those emails and leaked the truth would you be as upset?

    One more time. Yes Trump seems a little weird to me but he is eccentric . I like his picks so far as they are conservative

    Trump is no where near as narcissistic as Obama he takes the prize in that department
     

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