Hmmm, ''hundreds of guns are available'' in a country of over 60 million a few hundred guns is hardly ''easy to obtain''. Vastly increasing the numbers available by making ownership legal would make them far more easy for criminals to obtain though. Gun murders are still a tiny percentage of the total figures and mostly used against other criminals. No reason what so ever to flood the country with more guns.
It's certainly possible. I'm not denying that; all I have to go on is statements made by people who were British, so I took their statements at face value. Subsequent exposure to articles on the subject and photos showing English businesses clearly combating aggressive thievery only further cemented my belief that it is a continuing problem. I'll even say it's possible things have gotten better; those conversations were several years ago. The individuals in question both had a pre-existing interest in firearms ownership; emigrating to the U.S. simply enabled them to further that interest far more effectively than living in the UK.
The UK saw no effect from their gun laws implemented in 1996. The US has seen a 34% decline in their homicide rate since 1996 without any new gun laws, with tens of millions of more guns and including the expiry of the assault weapons ban. The data suggests that gun confiscations didn't affect UK crime and the lack of draconian gun laws hasn't prevented a decline in the homicide rate. If the UK has a lower homicide rate than the US (and it always has), crediting gun laws isn't supported by any data. The question does arise regarding comparisons over time - why was the UK homicide rate 1/10 of that of the US for most of the 20th century yet barely holds on to 1/4 of the rate after 1996? "Peace at any cost". We've seen that attitude before. And frankly, every country is different. I'll never live in the UK, nor hunt there, so I'm not concerned with their gun laws. Would that those there were likewise considerate of ours.
There's a notable difference between the UK and US. We also have high penalties for illegal gun possession and trafficking. They just aren't enforced, so criminals have no fear in carrying firearms. I presume that 5 shot .22 caliber bolt action rifles and double barrel shotguns are still legal to own? That attacker only killed 5 with a vehicle, true. However, the Nice attacker killed 89 and injured over 400 with a rented lorry. I presume lorries are legal, as are allowing large masses of people to gather near roads?
Well, you have democracy. We are a Constitutionally limited Republic. We have inalienable rights and you don't. If that's what you prefer then I relate the words of Samuel Adams: “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you..." Oh, and that whole "30,000 gun deaths a year" nonsense is a fallacy; just so you know.
You just get to walk the streets in fear of being robbed, stabbed, or beaten. You've created a society of helpless, spineless victimhood; a nation of lowing sheep. I'll take what my country has to offer in terms of liberty and freedom over what you've got any day of the week... and twice on Sundays.
You will note that it is almost never British people arguing that gun regulations should be lifted in the UK. It is invariably Americans projecting their fears about not being able to defend themselves that lobby for firearms to be made available to the British public. The two countries are very different and if I lived in a country where every petty criminal carried a gun I would probably feel differently about it. However in my 51 years I have never seen a handgun unless it was in a museum or in the possession of a policeman or a member of the military. I am not about to start telling Americans that they should disarm because that horse has already bolted so my belief is that Britain should not head down that same road.
Too bad too. I believe that we should include basic firearms safety and riflery as part of the Civics curriculum under which students learn their responsibilities as a citizen under the Constitution.
I'd say the main reason gun laws in the UK get mentioned in gun control discussions is that the anti's point to the UK as a country to emulate based on a misunderstanding of the differences.
No. You get to walk the streets in so much fear of being robbed, stabbed, shot or beaten that you feel it necessary to carry firearms to defend yourselves. We on the other hand just walk down the streets thinking about other things.
I’m sure some shops in some places have heavier security measures than usual but again, that’ll be equally true in some places in the US too. I just don’t want you going away with (or giving other people) the false impression that the UK is some kind of crime-ravaged wasteland.
Only a small percentage of the US population takes the trouble to legally carry a firearm in public. Nearly all of us walk down the streets thinking of other things.
Fair enough. I'm not one of those people who say the British should change - I have no desire to force my beliefs on other people - but when people want to use the British example as a reason why we should follow their path, I'm going to make my arguments as to why I disagree.
I'll grant you; I'm not going to get in front of my car if someone is trying to steal it. I do have insurance. But, as sometimes happens, a person might find themselves in front of a car with nowhere to go (positioning of buildings, walls, etc). Under those circumstances my choice will be very different, and I'll put as many rounds out of my defensive weapon through the windshield into my assailant as I can. It depends on which part of the United States we're talking about. In many ways the United States is not a contiguous nation; but a union of disparate mini-nations with different demographics, political philosophies, and laws. There are part of the U.S. with homicide rates even lower than in the UK... and most of them have very high levels of firearms freedom.
This is what The Guardian learned: “Firearms: cheap, easy to get and on a street near you,” “From drug dealing to settling playground squabbles, firearms offences are rising”, Duncan Campbell, The Guardian, August 2008, Last modified on Friday 26 November 201012.12 EST http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/30/ukcrime1 Guns are "cheap and easy to get" in the UK in spite of the gun ban. How could they not be cheap and easy to get? 10 year olds can and do manufacture fully automatic assault rifles from scratch. Gun ban laws are clearly not intended to disarm criminals
It is always an Eye opener to hear Brits like you discourse Firearms, why ? Because many British subjects believe in Gun control and Gun bans and very restrictive Gun regulations, all affecting law abiding citizens over Criminals, yet Crime in England and U.K. is still an ongoing problem . People are still murdered at rates similar prior to Gun bans. People like you actively rewrite history saying U.K. never had a so called Gun Culture like the U.S. and this is just not true. England was always at the forefront of firearms development, had the original N.R.A. and the organized competitions at Bisley as well as founding Rules for such. America has its share of Politicians that would implement British style Gun control tomorrow if it were possible. Such Gun control does not reduce crime as can be seen in American cities with Gun regulations similar to U.K. as an example, New York City comes to mind, you cannot buy a Gun or ammo there without prior Police approval, yet every Criminal can easily get Guns of any type, often stolen from Military sources. Gun control only affects those people already inclined to obey such regulations and in general only slightly impacts Criminal activities to any degree, Gun control is Political in nature and not effective as a Crime prevention measure. George Orwell had it right, in the story 1984: “He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.” George Orwell Big Brother is alive and well and living in U.K.
Well, all I have to go on is my personal interactions with the British. If we go off the percentages 98% of the Brits I've met tell a different story than you. Random sampling, I grant you; but out of such things polls are made. I've spent time in both Mexico and Canada. In each case, I was still armed; in Mexico I was not willing to accept being disarmed due to the crime situation there and the rampant LE corruption. In Canada I'm embarrassed to admit I simply went through the border checkpoint, we did some sight-seeing in Victoria, and then when we got to the hotel that night I realized I'd spent the day with my Glock 19 in its usual spot in its holster in my waistband. I'd even had a good-natured conversation during our wanderings that day with a couple of Victoria police officers in which we discussed our relative LE experiences and training. My wife wants to travel to see Scotland, and I'll obviously go with her. Clearly I won't be able to be armed; but I have enough hand-to-hand training I'm not overly concerned regarding simple assault. My head will be on a swivel the whole time, however.
I would respectfully state that she might be better off with a different starting point. The .380 in the Walther type pattern is a straight blowback recoil operated system. This actually transfers a much higher level of recoil to the shooter than a short-recoil locked breech pistol due to high slide velocities. Try a Colt Government .380; it's a locked breech design and their recoil is surprisingly soft, while a pistol like a Walther can be painful to the uninitiated. A lady who is a friend of mine has a Beretta .380 that actually is much snappier in recoil than my Glock 19 9mm; surprisingly so.
The you are walking in a dreamland - not the UK. “Crime has become so commonplace that it is hardly worth mentioning such incidents to friends. Everyone has their own stories: their mother mugged, their daughter's mobile stolen. It now takes something as extraordinary as a spate of vicious carjackings or a particularly spectacular drive-by shooting to seize the headlines.” Ian Birrell, How crime is exploding in the capital, The Independent, 17 September 2002.
I have no fear walking down the street. I just recognize that there are risks in every day life. I keep a fire extinguisher in my car and in my kitchen; not because I fear fire but because I know there's a possibility of it. I wear a seatbelt when I drive my car; not because I fear getting into an accident but because I know there's a possibility of it. I carry a gun, not because I fear being robbed, stabbed, shot or beaten but because I know there are people out there who target innocent people with violence every day and they'll find a hard target in me. Refusing to acknowledge that reality makes you a sheep, IMHO. That's not meant as an insult; sheep spend their lives thinking about other things. Wolves are still out there, and they will brutalize the sheep every chance they get. There are so many sheep, the odds are good they'll never get eaten, but I refuse to be one of them. I prefer the role of sheepdog. I move with the sheep but prefer to keep my teeth and claws sharp in case a wolf mistakes me for food.
If you observe demographics of prison populations in America and Criminals in general, you begin to understand that Gun Control is not an effective crime prevention measure, it is merely easier to implement in order to seem tough on crime when you can't control criminals in any significant manner.
Well I did not mean to imply that I am specifically looking at Walther's for my sister. Actually I am not. I just used the Walther as a well known illustration for the 380. Glock has a 380 and that is actually what I have my eye on for her because the striker mechanism of the Glock's is easier for my sister to comprehend. Although I myself would never own a Glock, it might be perfect for my sister. The range has several handguns available (both pistols and revolvers) for my sister to try out. I knew a lady a couple of decades ago in this situation who specifically chose and preferred a S&W 38 special revolver. I'll let my sister try that out as well.
This thread seems to be more like a cafeteria food fight than a debate. Nobody is agreeing about much of anything.
Since 1996 Americans have become far better armed, and many more now carry concealed handguns. More Guns - Less Crime.
Women may feel that the S&W is more reliable but they often carry the Walther, which is also very reliable, because it is more fashion friendly.
