The Muslims will stop trying to kill us when ______

Not ALL Nazis had to be dangerous for Nazism to be a threat to freedom and humanity.

Sam Harris thinks it's about 15-20% (but NOT ALL) of Muslims....that's well over 200 MILLION Muslims who are a threat.

 

No doubt, God is not a fan of homosexuality. Neither is He a fan of gambling, drinking or according to some interpretations, even telling jokes.

But to say that Jesus or even The Bible promotes killing gays is a rediculous exaggeration from God not liking many of humanities common activities.

 

I will agree with Sam Harris that Islam is the "motherlode of bad ideas".

 

One of the most barbaric verses in any religion is in Leviticus:
If a man has sex with another man, kill them both. 20:13
Explicit verse #2: Their blood shall be upon them

Can you condemn, like I do, any god that would allow that savagery, that utter barbarity (killing innocent people), to be taught by his followers and not explicitly tell us that they are wrong? I do, how about you?

 

Yes, we can all agree that god is a bigot. So obviously we can do better than follow/worship him.

 

So can you find the moral courage to condemn Christians for being so morally weak as to approve of a god that discriminates against innocent people (like I do)?

 

What is the purpose of Gods Law?
If you really wanna have a 'verse-off' we can do that all day. I'll be the first to admit that The Bible is contradictory if taken without some subjective interpretation. Much of the contradiction is between what God commanded and what Jesus countered. Out with the old 'eye for an eye' and in with 'turn the other cheeck' etc etc.
In the end, Jesus said that the most important commandments were to Love God and Love eachother, and he did not specify 'except gays.'

...and you still havnt provided the verse where Jesus says to 'kill gays.'

Im not letting that one go

 

But the Bible says that Jesus IS god! So "Jesus" can't escape the barbarity of god in the OT! Unless people will say that parts of the Bible are WRONG....will Christians admit that parts of it are wrong?

Matthew 9:2-6, Mark 2:3-12
Jesus ... said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth ... That ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.


John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.


John 5:16-18
Therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.


John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


John 10:30-31
I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.


John 10:38-39
The Father is in me, and I in him. Therefore they sought again to take him.


John 14:9
He that hath seen me hath seen the Father.


John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.


Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.


Colossians 1:16
For by him [Jesus] were all things created.


Colossians 2:9
For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.


1 Timothy 3:16
God was made manifest in the flesh.


Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.


Philippians 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.


Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.


Revelation 1:17
Fear not; I am the first and the last.


Revelation 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

 

Doesn't sound at all like he's "all-knowing", then, though, now does it?

 

Leviticus says to kill gays, and I also showed the bazillion verses that show that Jesus IS GOD.

Obviously, to be safe, one should leave this cult, just to be sure.

 

Are you equating lawful innocence on earth with moral innocence of the spirit?
I dont believe anyone is condemned that doesnt wish to be.
Forcing everyone into heaven would violate Free Will. There must be an alternative- Hell.

 

Because the Bible is so poorly written we may never know what he meant - and Jesus is not real, so that's why he hasn't come down in the last 2000 years and counting to simply educate us further.
Can we agree that if, repeat if, hypothetically here for argument's sake (to get at your/my levels of morality), god did say to kill gays that you'd recommend that people leave him ASAP? I say "yes, of course" - if, repeat if, he said to kill gays. Can you say that as well? Or is killing innocent people not a deal-breaker for you like it is for me?

 

That's a NO, NO you can't "find the moral courage to condemn Christians for being so morally weak as to approve of a god that discriminates against innocent people (like I do)".
So fortunately a moral step UP for you would be Modern Secular Humanism, as we CAN "find the moral courage to condemn Christians for being so morally weak as to approve of a god that discriminates against innocent people." We've risen to a higher moral plane - we are not morally confused as you are that approving of killing of innocent people is simply WRONG.

 

So again, you are admitting that "The Muslims" aren't trying to kill us.

Why did you base your OP on a delusion?

 

who are YOU to say what is wrong and what is right?

 

'Jesus = God' is the preschool version of christianity. Its too simplistic to be a genuine foundation for any particular position or argument. Jesus was (imo) an attempt by God to perceive reality from the Human (impotent) perspective. I believe God rid himself of His omnipotency and omniscience, lived as a mortal Human and (for lack of a better word) 'learned' a new perspective, and revised his expectations of us based on that prespective. This lead to the NT, a radically different 'God' than in the OT, that replaces emphasis on Law with emphasis on Love.

To be technical, the OT are not Christian Laws. They are Jewish Laws (Judaism has undergone its own reformations, of which I am less familiar). Levitikus was Jewish Law codified prior to Jesus, and Jesus on multiple occasions undermined Jewish law- example, by stopping the stoning of the women with the 'let he without sin cast the first stone' speech. To claim that Jesus said to 'kill gays' because 'Jesus = God' is either entirely ignorant of any of the philosophy applied by christians to the Bible, or deliberately disingenuous to the matter as a whole.

Its basically just a quippy version of the argument that 'The Bible literally makes no sense' when almost no Christians advocate a 100% literal interpretation of the Bible.

 

So you recommend REMOVING the verses that show that "Jesus is god", then, correct?

 

Yes, I have the AUDACITY to claim (shame on me!!) that killing innocent people (like the Bible and Qur'an approve of) is morally "wrong". How dare I do that!

How DARE I condemn God/Jesus for the barbaric torture of Job (a good man, apparently) in the Bible! How DARE I hold an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving "best person of all time" to the same standards that I hold my own mortal self!

 

Too bad the all-knowing "god" is such a lousy communicator or reasonable people like you and I wouldn't have these disagreements about what he's really trying to say, in the first place.

 

Well for one thing, I'm more ethical than Jesus because I'm not a racist/ethnicist like Jesus was in Mt 15:24 - saying that he was only going to help one particular race/ethnicity. "I have only come to help the Aryan people", which was Hitler's attitude, would sort of be equivalent to what Jesus was saying in Mt 15:24. And seeing how both Hitler and Jesus won't allow Jews into their countries/kingdoms, Hitler and Jesus seem very similarly, ethically.

Here are verses that show that Jesus was like Hitler (no Jews (non-Christians) allowed in "heaven" - because Hitler and Jesus are like racists, basically):
John 14:6: Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"
Acts 4:12, 2 Thessalonians 1:1-10, John 3:18, John 10:27-28, Matthew 10:32, Luke 12:8, John 5:2, John 3:36, John 6:47, Acts 16:31, Romans 10:9, Revelation 19:20, 20:10,14-15, 21:8, John 15:6: Jesus said “Unless a person remains united with me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up. Such branches are gathered and thrown into the fire, where they are burned up."

 

I admire your tenacity on this issue.

 

Ok, Ronstar, can YOU "find the moral courage to condemn Christians for being so morally weak as to approve of a god that discriminates against innocent people."? I can.

 

I DO NOT "WISH" to be condemned! I just want to follow the laws of science (that god allegedly set up, no?) and not burn in the "after-life" (if any) because I didn't win the theological lottery and luck out picking the "one true god" out of the thousands and thousands on offer! But Christians are so unethical, so unfair, to approve of god/Jesus/Allah's barbaric scheme. I'd feel guilty basking in "heaven" while Gandhi gets continuous torture being sent to the same place ("hell") as HItler! I'm not better than Gandhi - and neither are the majority of Christians - they are too scared of "hell" to dare question the obvious immorality of this "Jesus" fellow.

 

can you find the moral courage to stop flamebaiting and trolling?

 

I forget where (Ill look it up if you're unfamiliar) but the Bible says that Jesus spent his 3 days 'dead' preaching to the dead. I take this to mean that after we die and before we 'go' anywhere, we are all preached to by Jesus and enlightened as to the Truth. It wouldnt make any sense to do this unless it had an impact on whether we go to Heaven or Hell. I don't believe any of us are 'condemned' until that happens, and I believe that we each make that final decision ourselves, from a fully informed basis, having been able to 'hear' Jesus' own words in a state unconpromised by our 'wordly' experiences.