Russia, friend or foe?

Sandy and Thor

Your manic hate of PRESIDENT TRUMP makes you say some pretty stupid things.

 

You also said Putin's plan put us on a "collision course," by which I assume that the liberal democracies want to gobble up the Ukraine as well. Many argue that it was US meddling in the Ukraine that led to the crisis in the first place.

 

Get a grip on reality.
Putin is an aggressor. The "liberal democracies" do not gobble up territory.
"Many argue" - who are Putin puppets.
The Ukraine crisis was caused by Putin. Period.

 

Explain that policy. I have no idea what you are talking about. Do you?

I'm still trying to figure out where you got that.

That's right.

By "you," I assume you mean Trump. He has been fighting that war for the past six months, approximately.

Again, I am at a loss. Has anyone mentioned provoking a war with Russia? Yeah, I thought not.

Hey, did you vote for Trump?

 

Which posts are you reading? What you say doesn't match up with the posts you are replying to.

 

The USSR was an ally of Nazi Germany and invaded Poland from the East as the Nazis invaded from the West - Did You forget THAT?
Only when Hitler reneged on the alliance did Russia have a need for Western assistance.
"Fair weather friend" is what Russia was.

 

I have a fine grip on reality, thank you very much.

It is you, rather, who have been duped into cheerleading the .001% and their neoliberal crusade

 

I agreed with much of what you said, but there were two salient points with which I disagree.

No one here is talking about a "war mantra." Not me, not anybody, with the possible exception of some of Trump's friends. I haven't read all their comments.

This is Trump's doing. He dissed NATO leaders the last time he talked to them. Then he made things worse by joining Syria and Nicaragua when he withdrew the U.S. from the Paris Accord. That angered EU leaders even more.

Next, bring yourself up-to-date on the posts I wrote today. Trump has done even more damage to our leadership in the world. He really no longer wants the U.S. to be the leader of the free world. Via his "America First" policy, he wants to isolate the U.S.

His friend, Putin, will help him achieve that goal.

 

That would be post #6.

 

Hear! Hear!

Being the leader of the free world is an expensive and thankless task. We have troops in some 130 countries, and what does it buy us?

Let China dominate Asia, Russia dominate Europe and the US the Western Hemisphere. Russia would do a better job than Merkel, that is for sure.

What interest does the US have in Ukraine, anyway? Apart from the fact they have the most beautiful women in the world, of course. Let Russia invade Ukraine. We Americans should stick to invading Nicaragua.

When did all the liberals turn into neo-imperialists, anyway?

 

I have no idea what you are talking about.
I think you are a Putin bot.

 

Russia went bust the last time it tried to dominate other parts of the world like Eastern Europe, Latin America, Africa, the Mideast and Afghanistan.

Totalitarian states tend not to have the staying power for these adventures. They front load everything in order to scare people and have nothing in reserve when the going gets tough.

The Russian economy deteriorated under the weight of the Cold War and collapsed.

Russia today is half the size of the USSR with half the population. It's oil revenues have plummeted. It has nothing else to sell the world. It is having a tough time just trying to dominate its weaker neighbors. it could eat up its reserves just pursuing that limited effort.

A single foreign effort like Syria is a huge effort for them; while for the US, Syria and Iraq and are less of a stretch.

In other words, Russia is stretched thin again.

If Trump applies similar pressures that Reagan used to exhaust the Russians in the 1980's, Putin could be in a situation where he would have to either ramp up to a Stalinist dictatorship to maintain power, or crumble like Gorbachov.

It remains to be seen how the Russian people would react to a step backwards.

 

Of course you do. It is the only explanation simple for you to understand.

 

Not so much a friend or foe as a... cautious partner on certain issues. Both the EU and Russia want to take over Crimea. Unlike the Eurocrats, Russia actually has public backing: a Democratic mandate, which is something. Don't forget NATO promised not to do exactly this when the Iron Curtain fell.

I view the US-Russia relationship much like the US-China one.

 

definitely foe

 

Aw, yes, the Nazi/Soviet Non-aggression Pact, I forgot about that. Two brutal dictators agreed not to attack each other until the time was right.

The time became right for Hitler in June, 1941. Hitler didn't just renege on the alliance. He invaded the Soviet Union.

Silly somehow thinks Stalin was our friend back that. Stalin killed far more people than Hitler. Silly is proving my point with every post. Trump supporters are Russian sympathizers and proud of it.

 

The premise of the OP is based off of one main factor...
Crimea almost unanimously voted to leave Ukraine. At that point, it's none of our business.

 

I know that. It is what a large percentage of Trump supporters think that bothers me. They think Russia is our friend.

Of course, we know the reason for that, two reasons, actually. First, Russia aided Trump's victory in the election by seriously damaging the Clinton campaign. Secondly, their hero, Trump, views Putin as a friend and has yet to condemn him for interfering in our election or taking steps to prevent Putin from doing it again.

So, naturally, they view Russia as a friend and their comments on this thread confirm it.

 

Silly feels the need to state once again what he said to Sandy:

How could you be so wrong? Heck, I ask that question every time I read one of your posts!

But in answer to your question on this topic, perhaps the memories of some voters go back far enough that they remember that the USSR was an ally in the fight against Nazi Germany. (So maybe your question should be "how can an American adult not know that the USSR was an ally of the United States during WWII?"). Perhaps the views of some voters are nuanced enough that they understand that a nation needn't have to be considered 100% friend or 100% foe, that like any other human interaction, there are complexities and subtleties involved in nation to nation relations. (Remind me again, which candidate was it that said that Russia was the number one nation to be concerned about during the 2012 campaign?) Perhaps some voters aren't having their views of the geopolitical situation spoonfed them by the likes of CNN or MSNBC, whose reporters foam at the mouth at the very mention of the word Russia.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head...​

Because you seem to have a problem stating my position, I will make it very clear for you: Russia is neither 100% friend nor 100% foe. That was true during WWII, and it is true today.

And a question for our historian Sandy: which of the allied powers lost the most people to the Nazi aggression?

 

In the Oval Office recently, Trump told Russia’s foreign minister, Sergey V. Lavrov and the Russian ambassador to the United States, Sergey I. Kislyak, “I just fired the head of the F.B.I. He was crazy, a real nut job. I faced great pressure because of Russia. That’s taken off.”

Mr. Trump added, “I’m not under investigation."



"What an idiot," Lavrov tells Kislyak in Russian.

 

Kinda a silly topic.

The mainstay opinion from the American people has been about this for a while now, 40/60.

The only thing that changed everything is that Putin put out the information on Hillary, so the 30-35% of hard core leftists now absolutely despise Russia bringing the nuber to about 25/75.

If we find out Russia actually changed votes I think we should go even further with sanctions. But our government just got caught spying on basically the whole world, if they all over sensationalized it the way that Democrats are about a lot of the Russia stuff everyone would hate everyone.

Russia shouldn't be trusted and we should expect spying, like we do to them. But to call them an enemy is IMO not completely correct.

 

Answer to your question, if you mean the "allied powers" during WWII after Hitler nixed the Nazi/Soviet Non-aggression Pact, Russia lost the most people.

According to our state department, Russia is a geopolitical foe. Other than during the Stalinist era when Hitler forced Russia to become partners with the U.S. and Britain in defeating the Axis powers, you have given no reasons as to why we should regard Russia as a friend, which is inferred when you say Russia is not 100% foe. In other words, according to you, Russia is a part-time friend, part-time foe.

But you don't substantiate the friend part, not one bit. Whereas, have given several reasons as to why she is a foe and a bitter rival on the world's stage by describing events since WWII.

In fact, you continue to prove the main point of this thread. A large percentage of Trump supporters are Russian sympathizers. You have not challenged that viewpoint.

Nor have you challenged the reason why Trump fans support Russia and why Trump himself is friendly with Russia and Putin. Russia helped Trump win the Presidency by seriously damaging the Clinton campaign.

Although Trump has taken no steps to prevent Russia from interfering in our future elections, a spokesperson close to Trump has said Trump will probably not bring up Russia's interference in our election. He said it would be a waste of time and a non-starter.

 

I don't care if we call Russia an enemy, a foe, a rival, but we cannot call her a friend. Why not? Putin does not want to be America's friend. Putin laments the fall of the Soviet empire and he yearns for those days again.

She has proven not to be our friend as shown in the OP. We should deal with Russia from the standpoint of strength. That is the only language Putin understands. Given Trump's statements about Russia and Putin, I am quite concerned that will not be the case when they meet Friday. Putin is very shrewd, very savvy, and very experienced. Trump must be shrewd, savvy, and experienced when they meet.

Now you see the problem.

 

You mean this vote. "A referendum on the status of Crimea was held on March 16, 2014, by the legislature of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea as well as by the local government of Sevastopol (both subdivisions of Ukraine), following Russian military takeover of the peninsula. The March 16 referendum's available choices did not include keeping the status quo of Crimea and Sevastopol as they were at the moment the referendum was held." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014

You dealt with one sentence in the OP. Then you conclude the whole premise of the OP was based solely on Crimea when there were a number of other factors you chose to ignore.

 

You forget the prevalence of marching in lock-step on the right. Their party loyalty is stronger than titanium. Critical thinking is not needed there.