One question for Christians and one for Muslims neither can answer

Whoa! Slow down friend! I lost interest in the conversations other people were having that no longer involved me. If you would like to continue a discussion with me, I'll be more than happy to.

You said how you do not participate in organized religion and earlier you said that a ceremony is not necessary to be considered married. I couldn't agree more.

One question though: what would you consider the moment two people are married if no ceremony is involved? The moment they decide to move in together? The moment they consummate their love? Although the latter would be unlikely as some people engage in casual sex as well. Or the moment two people sign a legal document recognized by the government (with no ceremony involving a pastor or priest)?

 

Not rude, direct. As often as I get misunderstood it's best for me to state my case as succinctly as I can.

 

Well, God knows that mankind can and does perpetrate any evil they can imagine. There are people who choose to perpetrate evil and those who choose otherwise. You have the choice to carry it out or not to carry it out, it's not God's fault, your choices say more about you than they say about God.

 

If we're going with what the Bible says it's the moment you consummate Your Love. This is why so many Christians look down on casual sex.

My beliefs personally are not really relevant.

 

OK. I have another question. Earlier you stated that no believer can give a statement of great revelation and that it is not the priority of Christians to convince me of their beliefs. So what are exactly your thoughts on evangelism? Should a Christian friend introduce you to their beliefs without you first asking (I'm thinking street preaching and door to door) OR should they leave people alone and pray that out of curiosity I pick up a Bible or walk into a church building?

 

well it is a priority among Christians or at least some of them. And I don't think they should do that because it just further separates and divides.

Nothing a Christian can say will convince you not unless you want them to so really it's up to you you have to choose to believe or choose not to there's nothing else.

I think the best way to evangelize is to show compassion love and patience for everyone. I don't think bible-thumping is a good way to do it. Into those people that talk about God all the time nauseate even me so I can't imagine how irritating that is to an atheist and that's the opposite of evangelism.

Neither. I think they should be friends indiscriminately with people regardless of faith the stakes is strong person that doesn't have religious insecurities if that makes sense. And if people that do not believe in God want to start asking questions then you answer what you can and more importantly do not answer what you cannot.

I know this goes against what most people think of when they think of evangelism but that hasn't worked for 2000 years. Not unless there was threat of death.

It's something I tell Christians and have argued with Christians about it and it really pisses some of them off but they can't save anybody they don't have the ability and if they manage to manipulate people into believing they don't really know what believing is about. Belief if you ask me is a choice that you alone have to make. That's it. You can pray you can knock on the door but if you never believe it will open it won't. You have to seek to find it's not easy but I think it's worth it.

 

We are making progress and for that I thank you.

OK so it is when they consummate their love. I suppose that's what they mean by not uniting with a prostitute: 1 Corinthians 6:15

Now I'd like to address the idea of God's blessing of life and weather he is interventionist or not. Let's say two people engage in casual sex and the condom is broken and a baby is conceived. Now if God knows it's not a committed relationship, obviously God will frown upon it. So why would you call the child conceived of this "frowned upon" (if not a sin) arrangement a blessing?

We addressed the clockwork universe theory a lot in this thread. Where God is not personally directing the sperm to the egg. He created everything in an instant and all other things are just reactions to the first event. Hence there is personal responsibility. But if this were true, how do you reconcile weather God is interventionist or not when he brings forth his "blessing" of life? I also mentioned earlier about God thanking Satan or the sinners for offering him the opportunity to bring forth his blessing even though it was not his original intent. My answer I got to that was that nothing is his original intent as we are all now living in sin.

What say you to this?

 

They have but 1 choice. To do what god already knows, before they were born, what they would do.
How can it be any different with an omniscient being?
If they chose to do something the omniscient being didn't know, well, there's no omniscience.
How is that so hard for some to grasp? As obvious as the nose on one's face.

 

The answer is very clear - its called the Great Commission, Matthew 28:18
"Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

It is a priority for Christians to spread the Gospel. Street evangelism, door to door, advertisements, taking advantage of opportunities that present themselves throughout the day, missionary work.

An approach of "leave people alone and pray that out of curiosity I pick up a Bible or walk into a church building" is not one that Christians take, and are commanded not to take.

You can always say "no thank you" and walk away.

 

Them was the apostles, not you.
Many are not qualified to preach in the street or recruit. Most everyone has their unique brand of christianity. You'll never get 2 to agree on much of anything.

 

yeah I'm not up on my Bible study and the most atheists I know are former Christians and spent a lot of time studying the Bible I can't say that I spend much time on it at all I don't find it that important there is some things in the Bible that are good there are some things in the Bible that we should consider not obeying and there are some things in the Bible that we should absolutely not obey. So I can't speak for a bible-believing Christian. I apologize for attempting to

Well I have to say this is a very difficult question one that I can't answer.

I agree with you that the free will answer seems to be a cop out. Like I said I don't think evangelism means having an answer for everything. I think people want to have an answer for that and they deliver on such a question with such a poor answer as free will because they want God to be all things for all people.

So I'm sorry I can't answer your question I lack the wisdom and the knowledge and even the ability to get the answer.

So the only responsible thing I can do tell you I don't know.

Given the experience that you described it seems that there is a flaw.

I can understand that unraveling your faith in a certain religion or all religions.

The question you're asking when boiled down to it is essentially how can God let this happen. Why doesn't he intervene? Why doesn't it seem like he loves us or at least your friend who became pregnant?

These are questions I ask and I never get a really good answer for them. I don't think a good answer exists.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I dding think the Lord needs salesmen. Further I dont think a banking lunatic or cultists knocking on your door is a worthy sales pitch.

This also is confirmed in the bible. "Knock and the door will open." I believe that is in Matthew. You have to knock for the door to open. You have to seek to find, you have to ask for it to be granted. This is a humbling experiance.

It doesn't say you have to sit in your home until a Jehovah's witness or Mormon knocks on your door. Or that you are to listen to some nutter screaming at strangers inn the street.

 

What are you, a Calvinist? If a Calvinist falls down the stairs he says "Glad I got that out of the way". The reason God knows what's going to happen is because to Him it's already happened. You're the one who's in the dark.

And if you do something stupid God will say "What a stupid move", but He's not going to stop you unless there is a lot more on the line than you just making a stupid move.

 

The consequences and/or results of a sinful act are not inhetrently sinful.

 

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. And wrong. Wrong on all 4.

 

Cite one verse from the Bible that says that Yahweh, the God of the Hebrews and the God of the armies, cares about Gentiles.

 

Many people don't have any exposure to Christianity. In France, for example, there are almost no Christians, the vast majority of French have never read the Bible or even seen one.

The earth is filled with competing ideas, all being actively promoted. And many people are actively fighting against Christianity. It makes no sense at all to assume all people are just boats tossed about on the ocean and hope that they will all somehow make it to port.

Would you have the same cavalier attitude about other issues such as gun rights, abortion, politics, economics? I doubt it. People advocate for what they believe in, and to protect themselves.

Matthew 7:7-8, but that has a different meaning than evangelism.

With respect to salvation, its Revelation 3:20 - I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

Yes, Christianity is voluntary. Its a relationship between the individual and God, there is no human intermediary. That does not mean no human should spread the Gospel, the Bible is clear that people should spread the Gospel.

If you knew the Truth, would you keep it a secret?

You give 2 activities out of a million. There are all kinds of ways to actively spread the Gospel.

I think people don't want to hear about Christianity because it makes them think about things that are uncomfortable. Their solution is to isolate themselves from Christians, which in the modern intolerant world is to push Christianity into the closet.

 

For the first comment, I would think long and hard before I proclaim something as truth.

I disagree with the idea that it's because it makes people uncomfortable. Perhaps some people are like that but not me. I would prefer to isolate myself from Christianity (I know, I cannot) or to push it into the closet is for the reason that they (evangelizing Christians and religious family members) make assertions of "I know for an absolute fact" and then when they cannot answer all my probing and difficult questions, they revert to making moral judgments on me. There is few other things that would push me towards shunning people or the other way around with them shunning me.

 

makes sense if you are talking to someone in France.

if Christianity is truth than there is no competition.

Agreed which is why I didn't assume that or make any indication that I did.

Gun rights, abortion, politics and economics are ideas. Are you saying Christ is on par with them?

Yeah Go thump the bible and see who listens.

Who says I do?

I don't think being a bible thumper will help.

I agree, among a whole host of other reasons, one I hear a lot are parents or grandparents using religion to justify abuse. But then again I listen to people.

Oh, so you are an SJW than? Christian evangelists are just poor little victims?

If you want to play the victim card be my guest. I think it is too cliché for me to fall for it.

 

Yeah this is shortsightedness on battle3's part. As I have observed there seems to be several reasons people don't like Christianity. Most common, people just don't believe the claims of Christianity. They think immaculate conception is far fetched, Adam and Eve and genesis has been essentially disproven. The next most common explanation is that religion is used as a justification to do and act in ways that are reprehensible. disowning children siblings and parents, forcing children into marriages and even genocide.

I rarely if ever met someone that says it makes them feel uncomfortable. I think this is a way people that engage in apologetics blame people for not following what the believe to be truth. "You don't want to believe it is true because than you have to admit you are wrong."

I find it petty and lacking in self awareness.

I have a theory as to why people do this. but I will only get into it if you care to hear it. no need to bore you if you don't care.

I noticed they didn't like divergence of much.

 

Do tell.

 

How does a person get to heaven?
What is heaven like? Is there sin? Did Lucifer sin when he was tossed out? Can others be tossed out? For what reasons, if so? Why not, if no other can be tossed since one and others have been already?

 

I think they need a black sheep. Someone who is worse than them so they can say "at least I'm not so and so or such and such." Because only the worst of us deserve hell and if people are worse than them they can (at least for themselves) justify their behavior because it isn't as bad as yours or mine.

Its kind of like a younger sibling getting in to trouble and telling their parents something worse the older sibling did.

Essentially its elevation through lowering the low not rising.

 

Yep, it's already happened. And it can't changed from what already happened.
Not a Calvinist, just plain old human logic.
Unless we can change what has already happened.
So, if as you say, it already happened, how is there free will? It's an illusion to the individual.

See, you agree, it's already happened, therefore, can't be changed or different. It's already done.