PSYCHOANALYSING NATO: CONFIRMATION BIAS

Well yeah....since those respective countries voted and ratified being in Nato....I've mentioned this a few times), they didnt want to be under the "soviet yoke"?

What western covert ops??
Links/sources? Credible ones?)

West continues to support far right groups?? Steve Bannon told you so?

And Muscovite invades crimea and DPR, with strelkov/Girkin "novorussia" nonsense)), rather weak argument.

 

Ukraine's "neo Nazis" problem is smaller compared to the moskalis in russia....where they run rampant ...more so even.


Crimeans voted with many little " green men" with AKs well before the Mar16 vote....without any Intl observers.....that was/is needed in that part of the world!?!)

 

Yet according to Gallup and GfK over 90% of the Crimea's population agree with Russian annexation and say the referendum was accurate.

You do know that Crimea is ethnic Russian majority right as is Donbass and Luhansk.

But keep playing that Russian bogeyman while ignoring your own voter suppression, gerrymandering and outright fraud in places like Florida 2000.

It plays well with the neo-conservative narrative.

 

The Soviet yoke doesn't exists anymore. The Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore.
This is nothing more than scare tactics to legitimize NATO expansion into Russian borders.

If you don't understand the politics of pipelines through the Caucasus, the history of American covert activity around the globe or even the recent history of Georgia or East Ossetia then I don't think a couple of links that you probably won't read will help clear your understanding.

It's actually a rather strong argument if one understands current history and the geopolitics of the region.

 

Uh yeah.....the DPR has many ethnic ukranians also, more than you think. Have you been there??
Kharkiv, Donetsk(for most part), want nothing to do with some Russki Mir.

Lol....not playing any"boogeyman"....it's an accurate assessment).

As for voter suppression....we get rid of our presidents after 2 terms.....your putinka will be there for the long haul it seems!!),lol.

 

Uh huh....no real scare tactic....those said countries are happy to be in Nato.....just like Crimeansare "happy" with Muscovites,lol.

Well yeah....there's always pipeline "politics".
Why depend on one (Gasprom), who likes to shut the valves Everytime they dont like someone who gets legally elected?!?)

Oh sure....the Sovs tried to stick missiles in Cuba....even Nicaraugua when Ortega was their useful "idiot").

So tell me about "covert ops")....they tried pissing in our sphere longer than weve been trying,lol.

 

Actually, Castro was responding to the threat of US invasion and only courted Russia as defense against American covert ops.....you know...Bay of Pigs after the revolution threw out brutal American puppet Batista who along with his gansta cronies courted the mafia casino economy in Havana and the United Fruit, CIA, Sullivan Cromwell rape of the sugar fields in the country side that impoverished the Cuban people. Cuba has been enduring embargoes and sanctions ever since for daring to overthrow brutal American stooge Batista and nationalizing their own assets and economy.

Having their own national interests is a crime that cannot be condoned by the American Empire and it's corporate cronies especially in the western hemisphere.

As I said, you don't understand your own history or the covert ops used since the end of the war to support American commercial and military interests.

Google School of the Americas activities in Latin America or watch a few docs on the subject that shows the history of CIA activity around the world.

I don't blame you. Your education system and corporate media does not address any of this history.

What America gets is Russia, Cuba, (insert evil enemy here) bad - America (home of freedom and democracy) good.

Nicaragua was another perfect example. Never mind that US backed Contras murdered thousands and dealt drugs to support their reign of terror.

The equivalent of America's founding fathers, right......

Ortega dared to land reform, health care and education.......crimes like this will be crushed as communism by the corporate empire.

 

Do you mean to tell me that the US pushed and militarily forced Russia to start importing its Chevrolets, iphones, Italian Ferraris and to have IKEA and Starbucks franchises? Did US put a gun to Putin's head to have him open MOEX (Moscow Stock Exchange)? How about multiparty elections? Was it the US who forced Russian and Chinese youth to imitate American rappers? Do you even hear yourself?



Actually you are being the joke by denying the world order when you obviously can't define what it is...

It's Russia reaching Pakistani waters, Ukraine, Syria, Africa. It's China reaching African soils. It's Iran reaching Mediterranean. Are you on acid or something?

Don't you try to sell me my sht, you get that zebra? That subject is way over your pay grade...

 

)), Castro wasn't just "courting" the russkis, sorry to burst your bubble....the missile bases were being constructed, and some were probably operational....hell the russkis even built soccer fields for recreation....certainly the Cubans didn't build them, considering they play baseball as a pastime)).

Uh yeah, I understand pretty well our "covert ops"....iIdont need a lecture )), can't say the same for the muscovites.!!)

Speaking of "invasions"....how did the World Tour for the russkis end up in Feb 89....you know the INvasion of Afghanistan?? That started in Dec79. Didnt end well ...did it).

The ultimate FaH Q was the defeat of the soviet military and collapse of the SU). And now Muscovites just a second rate regional power, looking for lost glory days).

So spare me the "whataboutism".

 

You can quit with the stupid smily faces if you want.

You clearly have no idea about the timeline of the Bay. of Pigs or the missle instilation. Castro knew the threat of American invasion and covert ops including assassination was imminent. Especially after the invasion of '60, which was how many years before the missle crisis?

What Russian world tour? Afghanistan? That's some world tour.

And you do know that Brezinzski"s on record as saying the US used black ops and terrorist activity like arming jihadists to try to draw Russia into it's own Vietnam.

Even so, considering US covert ops and outright war to destabalize and interfere with nations all through south amd central America, how does the US come off as all pure and democratic and freedom-loving again?

Spare me the innocent act and protestations. Your record is just as bloody and brutal as Russia's

And no lecture intended but clearly you have little understanding of your history of covert action and undermining democratic movements the world over.

 

al

If my smileys bother you...that's your problem.

Im assuming you have accurate timelines of the missiles installations....maybe the kremlins cables? CIA documents?

Brzezinski on "record"??
Brzezinski said many things....not necessarily true you know.

"Even so" ....considering".....so you're not even sure, and you're speculating.

You can't get more brutal than the Sovs....the Holodomor comes to mind...7+ mln ukranians alone....and don't try to deny, there's plenty of links out there for it.

Yes you're right....you can't lecture me, since it seems you are even less clueless about the Kremlins attempts worldwide.....but keep being Putinka cheerleader.....the vatniks love "useful idiots"....according to them.

 

The timeline of the Bay of Pigs and the subsequent acceptance of Soviet missiles in order to deter American aggression is public record. Any idiot who knows how to use google can pull up the timeline. Bay of Pigs was in early 61. When was the missile crisis?

Here is Brzezinski being interviewed on the subject after his memoirs came out:

https://www.counterpunch.org/1998/01/15/how-jimmy-carter-and-i-started-the-mujahideen/

How am I speculating when I am quoting the public record by Jimmy Carter's Security Adviser who presumably knows more about it than you who appear to know nothing about it? He says on record that they acted before the invasion to destabilize a Soviet backed regime and draw them into a war. How much more conclusive can the record be?

What links? So post something other than stupid smileys to back up your claim You are still trying to deny that the US record of brutal anti-democratic covert activity by deflecting on Soviet actions which I have not tried to deny. And you have provided nothing other than smileys to back up anything you say. Stop being so lazy. If you want to compare atrocities that's fine. The Soviets had theirs and so did the US. Why are you trying to deny the historical record by calling me a Putinka cheerleader. I am well aware of Putin's record. I am also well aware of the US record.

"The phrase "useful idiot" has often been attributed to Vladimir Lenin, although he is not documented as having ever used the phrase.[3] In a 1987 article for The New York Times, American journalist William Safire investigated the origin of the term, noting that a senior reference librarian at the Library of Congress had been unable to find the phrase in Lenin's works and concluding that absent new evidence, the term could not be attributed to Lenin.[3][4]Similarly, the Oxford English Dictionary in defining "useful idiot" says: "The phrase does not seem to reflect any expression used within the Soviet Union".[1]"

So who's the idiot? This is just the usual ad hominem BS from people who are grossly misinformed about history and spout insults and misguided garbage to deflect from the fact and it's not original at all.

Fill me in on the Kremlin's record worldwide and tell me why it is so much different from the US record in Latin America, Vietnam, Iraq or anywhere else?[

 

https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-po...r-was-genocide-unleashed-against-ukraine.html

So before calling someone lazy, maybe google up soviet russki atrocities and you should find tons of links.

The one mentioned above is one....and outweighs other atrocities in itself.
Katyn Forest another example.)

So one journalist investigates and finds nothing? Hardly a convincing argument,lol.
Even if Lenin publicly didnt say anything doesn't mean a thing.)

And so what about Brzezinski, that he said those things?? Tell me? The russkis invasion of astan cost them dearly, theyve got no one to blame but themselves.!!

 

You know damn well that Russia didn't expand into Georgia, Ukraine or did any of the other garbage you posted. The demonizing and lies are against Vladimir Putin for daring to tax the American corporations.

 

I read your link from the 1930's. I am sorry. No one denies that the Stalin era was brutal or that terrible crimes were commited.

No one is defending Stalin or anyone else. The 30"s and 40's were a terrible era where civilians suffered terrible casualties all around.

This was true all over Europe and the world. The casualties in Stalingrad alone were horrific and staggering.

But if we move on to the present era, it is estimated that close to a million civilians have died as a result of the American invasion of Iraq alone. And this does not count the thousands of children who are estimated to have died before the war from sanctions.

If you want to hold on to hate from the 30's, that is your right but does it help understand the world today?

There is lots of atrocity to go around. It seems to be who we are as a species.

Lot's of things happened in the 30's and all the decades since.

The question is where do we go from here?

 

Not really. Facts are facts and history is history. The agreement made with Gorbachev was reneged upon immediately by Poppy Bush. Twist it which way you like but this will not change the reality of what took place and it shows that the US cannot be trusted to keep its promises. When you negotiate in bad faith it weakens and delegitimises you long-term.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-...on-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

 

Peter, I refer you to the answer I gave to Zoom and Tecoyah. Read the US national Security Archive reports (and supporting documents). The evidence is clear and cannot be argued with.

If you wish to talk about the Vodka soaked

Best know your history, Peter, before fulminating so hilariously.

I suggest you read Charles Levinson's book Vodka Cola first published in 1977, that reveals the emptiness of your rhetoric and knowledge base.

I happened to work for the bank that helped open the Soviet Union up prior to the fall of the Berlin Wall. We did lots of import financing deals for them during the late 1980's. But we were a long way behind Western corporations like Pepsi Cola and Fiat and others. No matter what politics prevail business and human greed never sleep.

 

You don't get it do you?
My below quote from previous reply is to help you comprehend the concept of world order by giving simple examples of what makes up a world order:

Principally the same economy:
open market to the extend of at least supply-demand equilibrium determining market prices
Principally the same political structure:
Parliamentary democracy or multiparty elections
Principally the same regulations govern the international relations:
Diplomacy through foreign affairs departments.
Principally the same sociocultural dynamics: A popculture youth.
Principally the same understanding of criminal law:
Rape, murder, robbery, etc are criminal activities.
Principally the same understanding of air travel terms:
Same rules at all airports in the world. Thanks to 9-11 in the immediate aftermath of which Putin called Washington and said Russia was ready to do what it takes to adjust the new norms.

All of the above more or less accepted by an overwhelming majority which pretty much makes up a standard in every continent today.
That's a WORLD ORDER you call a DISORDER.
So I'm asking again:
"What do you suggest of a world order that functions better than this?"
No more mess arounds, no more running... I explained in detail and asked directly. So the response should be as direct and detailed.

And... The arguments, if they ever are, you claim you came up with against Zoom and tecoyah are completely irrelevant to the fact that you call a world order, which Russia and the world majority contributed voluntarily, a disorder simply because you are ignorant of the concept and are desperately parroting nothing but weak Kremlin propaganda to discredit it. Sad...

 

I'm inclined to refer you to my post No.5 where I previously covered this at your request.

The fact is that this thread was about how the US knowingly reneged on its repeatedly stated promise to the Soviet Union's Gorbachev that NATO would not move "one inch to the east" if Gorby allowed German reunification to take place. That promise was virtually set in stone by every major Western leader, but immediately reneged upon once reunification got under way. I call that bad faith and that it is a reflection on how the US cannot be trusted to abide by its word. My view on this remains unchanged.

For some reason (presumably) known only to you, you wish to deflect attention away from this subject by debating the benefits of an American led World Order.

What I suggest you do is start a thread along those lines (PM me about it) and I'll join in by noting my perceptions about the downsides of this lop-sided and destructive beast of an idea.

 

You could have at least added a short response to my question about what you'd suggest in the name of an order better than this current one along side your pure "Putinist" argument of that "word keeping" BS. You didn't surprise me.

If you seriously defend that Putin's Russia relies on mere words rather than official signatures let's see what you got with that. If your position is different then what's the point to bring up Gorbachev's naive side now?

Your excuses seem even worse than your previous errors including that poor understanding of world order...

No good...

 

And please don't stoop this low with me. When I was telling posters this I was not really making up an excuse because they were really trying to distract me from the thread subjects with nonsense.
Me on the other hand presented you an argument and you obviously "failed" to counter it in your first attempt. You attempted to counter it.
So this suggestion is absurd as a Zebra competing with an English horse... : (

 

The victims of the holodymir were the same people that the Bandera followers were killing in WWII, and the same ones that are being killed by the Western Ukrainians today. If anything, it seems to me the Banderites should be grateful to Stalin and Khruschev for helping them ethnically cleanse the Russians in Eastern Ukraine, that way they could grab their lands.

They're holding on to grievances imagined or real that go back centuries, so they can rationalize what they do. It always leads to one's own destruction. Ukraine would be a perfect example of that.

 

If that makes you feel better, Peter. I don't find your arguments thus far presented either deeply cogitated upon or overflowing with understanding of the issues involved.

So go ahead and start a thread and outline what exactly the "world order" as you comprehend it actually is? Because it's a complicated subject and hitherto your understanding of it - and my position is, as usual - completely flawed due to your inherent prejudices.

I will contribute to that thread.

 

Thank you Zebrawsky. I know you think slightly different than Pisa on things like that but I still prefer waiting for the Phase 2 as well.

Once it's got started I will detail the order...

Regards,
Petuh.