10% of the population has an IQ lower than 83, what this means

You can't fix them if the parents don't come along for the ride. All you can do is apply bandaids.

We should not be seeking to change the education system. While kids continue to do exceptionally well in our public schools (and many do), we know it's working just as it should, and probably better than it needs to.

 

Well, no. But that's your burden, and the burden of your kids, to bear.

The minute you allow yourself the luxury of believing IQ is genetic, is the minute you stop parenting to the degree that kids need.

 

Did you notice the word 'partially' in there? Parents need to look after their chlldren too.

 

not genetic/...not sure if I agree with that, I always assumed it was partly genetic but I confess I've never asked an expert, I'll send a txt to my buddy the Neurologist and see what he has to say and get back to you on that.

I've wondered why seemingly dull parents have a a bright child or bright parents have a dull child...maybe those dull parents were never tested and are bright and got an opportunity to develop? maybe those dull children were never motivated to try?

I do agree that it changes through one's lifetime, prenatal and early child health, life experiences/environment, educational exposure will all shape it, it can go up and even down as you age.

 

yes for the most part our education works well but there's no reason why should give up on those with crappy or incompetent parents..where I live the public schools make the effort to assist the kids that struggle, failure to produce productive adults only adds to poverty and crime...a productive adult pays taxes and contributes to society...

 

More war, more cannon fodder. Maybe we need perpetual war to cull the less intelligent? Maybe Bolton is right?

 

Our external perception of how smart/dumb the parents are is just that .. an external perception. The only bona fide measure of the quality of someone's parenting is the child. If a child is bright, and bright enough to use that intelligence intelligently, then her/his parents got it right. And vice versa. If the kid is dull, the folks went about it all wrong.

Do you understand how intelligence is built? Your neurologist friend should be able to explain it to you. In lay terms, it's synaptic pathways, and how 'strong' they are. Human infants are wired to trigger the building and strengthening of synaptic pathways via eye to eye close engagement with a primary carer. That close engagement literally sets off and accelerates the process of 'firming' the pathways. What this means in practice, is that children need a 'mother' figure who will interact with them closely and often, from birth through to age 3 or thereabouts. And when I say closely, I mean literally talking to them with full eye contact, around the clock. That eye contact is crucial, as it's the actual trigger. If you enhance it with language (doesn't matter if the kid can't understand, it's exactly the kind of stimulation infants need), it becomes even more powerful. It's almost certainly the reason breastfed kids have higher IQs (the debate is ongoing as to whether it's the milk or the process) .. since breastfeeding means more frequent feeding, which means more close engaged contact between mother and child.

The upshot, when you encounter 'dull' kids who are otherwise neurotypical (not disabled or brain injured), you can be sure they were effectively ignored as a child. I don't mean abused, or neglected. Some will have received a very high level of physical care and attention .. but they were ignored in the ways which count.

 

Further to the above .. you will have seen and heard those really bright little kids while out and about in public. You know, the 4 year olds who ask a lot of questions, have huge vocabularies, and who often employ terms and concepts we associate with older kids. If you're around the child and its mother for any length of time, you will almost always notice something specific about the way the she communicates with the child, also. That being .. she is constantly TALKING to the child. She rarely ignores him/her, and answers all questions with consideration and thought. She will in turn, ask the child lots of questions relating to where they are, and what they're doing. For example, in a supermarket she will ask him/her to name all the fruit, count items, talk about how things are made, why the shopping cart is hard to get around corners, etc etc etc. Then consider that she does this for all of her child's waking hours. That is a parent who will produce a child with a high IQ.

 

good stuff crank...I've noticed kids who advanced for their age have a parent or parents that communicate with them as an adult, no baby talk, no hiding the facts, don't shy away from the difficult questions assuming the child won't understand...my nephew divorced his wife early and took custody of his daughter, he's a very bright engineer and attentive father he never talked to her as a child, he's raised an 8yr old with an incredible vocabulary and a deep interest in all things science(no fan of dolls, it was dinosaurs, naturally and tarantulas/scorpions/snakes that lived in the garden)...she most definitely had a head start on her classmates...

my Neurology buddy texted me back in regards to genetics vs experience as usual he's vague whenever I ask him a brain question....he says it's likely a bit of both and won't speculate as to how much of each because there isn't a definitive answer...as he's told me before we(neurologists) still don't know a whole lot on how exactly intelligence/memory work we speculate but it's still a mystery...with nearly 30yrs as an MD I gotta respect what he knows or as he says doesn't know...

 

with parents I expected that a lot of what we see is the result of a lifetime of experience or lack there of and not indicative of their true potential if given the opportunity to develop

I've got a pretty good idea on intelligence development we've raised four exceptionally bright kids, they still remind me we watched science/anthropology documentaries together rather than cartoons...at three my twins together managed to figure out how to bypass the parental password on the family computer ..I didn't know about the eye to eye contact , Ill pass on that advice to my daughters when they have toddlers of their own...I was aware of the effect of infant neglect on emotional and intellectual development from my Uni days...

 

It's not enough if they still have children. IMO govt subsidies in such cases should be conditional and provided only with proof of long term contraception.

 

The status quo today is what you get from parents...the point is you cannot force them...

 

Let me guess...now you want to change how people are raised? People are what they are and there's nothing the public can do about this except to have laws and provide education in both cases hoping people will do well...

 

Starts at birth, remember. Infancy is the key time for firming up of those synaptic pathways!

Meantime, I commend you on raising bright kids. You obviously did it right. And yes, that early parental engagement is what did it

 

Who said anything about force?

You and Fox Hastings keep resorting to this idea (on different topics), which is bizarre in both instances. I assume it's your way of avoiding discussing personal responsibility? "You can't make me be a decent parent, and you shouldn't even ask it of me!" and all that?

 

Nothing the PUBLIC can do?

The PUBLIC is people. Most of whom are or will be parents. We're all free to choose a future for our kids, or our own momentary ease.

 

It doesn't really matter what is communicated, as long as it's an engagement (two way interaction, with careful listening and considered responses). Not sure what you mean by 'hiding facts and shying away from difficult questions'. Do you mean when parents don't know the answer to some kind of technical question (how is ice cream made, or whatevs), and instead of involving the child in a search for the answer, they say brush the child off with 'don't know'? Because in that case I agree.

Your buddy answered your question wisely. Western science is so wedded to the idea of genetics in human behaviour, that they're having trouble letting it go. Ask the average Chinese (or Indian, or Japanese) parent if genetics play any part in academic success. Not only do they know full well that it doesn't, but they've known it for centuries. They were never seduced by western idea of nil parental responsibility (for outcome). Science declaring that we're all 'born this way', regardless of what that excuses, was driven by a need for the absurd freedoms that westerners consider important. Freedom from personal responsibility.

 

yup that's exactly what I meant...adults tend not to realize what children are capable of understanding...I saw my kids as un-programmed computers ready to absorb all the information I could throw at them...

I've been arguing that point for years on the forum, forum members claiming the asian *race* Chinese, Japanese,Koreans were genetically smarter than other races because of test scores...my position was it wasn't genetic (racial)but due to cultural/environmental causes...

those asian societies place great importance on academic scores, academics are revered in asian societies and not scoffed at as "leftist elites" as has been become popular in the west...their parental expectations are very high and they impose those expectations on their children and the children strive to meet their parents approval...

 

There are genetic, nutrition, health, and rearing/stimulation/educational components.

 

Yes...the difference between reality and your la-la-land misdirection. If you cannot change parents then stop whining about them...

 

Yes...the public cannot do anything about poor parenting...

 

Good for you. You're obviously no dummy yourself. Meantime, it can't be racial/genetic, since Indians are not Asian (they're caucasian) and operate the same way. And some white families have the same approach to education, end get the same results. Ditto Black families. Again, when specialist teachers of the gifted working in multicultural societies always confirm .. the ONLY factor common to all such kids is very invested and involved parenting. Adopted kids included.

 

What do you think the public is? A herd of bison?

 

Every one of us can change 'parents', since every one of us is or will be a parent.

 

Nope. Only environment (in the absence of starvation or other severe physical imposition).