10% of the population has an IQ lower than 83, what this means

so, they are "ditch-diggers" employing some sophisticated machinery. That they presumably learned to manipulate somewhere.

They did not wake up one day and become, ipso-facto, a "ditch digger".

Every job nowadays is a matter of education. So, let's stop the nonsense about who gets a degree because their parents have got the $12K a year that it costs at a state-school of post-secondary education.

It should be free, gratis and for nothing. Like high-school was ...

 

Frankly I think tests DO MEASURE intelligence, which is why the uneducated fail those tests.

Neither do I think that "intelligence" measured has any really significant outcome of a person's ability to "succeed". Professional success is a matter of a great many factors, sufficient intelligence being just one of them* ...

*And perhaps the most important depending upon the profession.

 

They measure something, but that's not necessarily intelligence. There is no good definition of intelligence. And IQ has nothing to do with education. If intelligence were an innate thing, it wouldn't matter if a person was educated or not.

My view was what I was taught in a doctoral level education class on the subject of educational testing. Sorry it doesn't fit your view, but it's what scholars in the field believe.

 

And IQ as measured by IQ tests has been rising.

 

If I can measure a phenomenon, you can bet-your-bippy that it exists!

What you cannot bet on is how to use it for profitable gain.

You seem not to like the fact that some people - on paper and resulting from an exam - show a superior dexterity at answering correctly the questions than others.

As I said elsewhere, that is a sure sign of "intelligence". (Please click through to its definition!)

But, that does not make anybody particularly special or adroit in undertaking any particular kind of job even though they have some very "adroit skills". But, you can bet on the fact that were they to do so, and given the task, many with higher IQs would perform the work both quickly and competently.

Let's not go overboard just because there are a lot of "intelligent people" in this world. Many of them are also first-class dolts. One that I can think of is Donald Dork ...

 

definition intelligence-the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills.

 

and it would be an error to assume every ditch digger whether he's leaning on a shovel or operating a machine isn't intelligent...motivation, opportunity, lifestyle choice and career preference play a part, not every MD is brilliant and not every person who swings a hammer an idiot...

agreed, as it is in some EU countries..there's a strong payback for a country having a well educated population and no one should be left out because of financial abilities of their parents...it's the best way to break the generational poverty cycle...

 

the consensus among experts is they don't agree that IQ is an accurate measurement, it basically a vague predictor of a how individual will do in their particular societies school system...as my example from an earlier post you can take a native out of the Amazon rain forest and give him/her an american IQ test and they'll fail horribly(even if they have any motivation to try)but that doesn't mean their not highly intelligent

components of intelligence-reasoning, verbal ability, short term memory... very difficult to measure and apply...I have a sister-in-law who has an astonishing short term memory that would put her into genius category on that alone but in truth she's dumber than a bag of hammers...

just like my sister in law

 

The kids we're talking about better educating are the future parents. And it's not just education that creates an involved parent. We have immigrant families who have both education and language challenges. We have working single parents. We have parents who abuse alcohol and drugs. We have horrific home environments not conducive to reading and studying. We have ghetto areas riddled with gangs and crime and drugs. I just read today that some law degree graduates can't pass the bar exam...some have taken it 8 times and still not passed. So no matter all the other crap I mentioned above, mostly external issues, a huge question might be; Are we miserably failing as a society to properly educate our kids?

 

First, every school across the nation should be identical in the condition of the facility, equipment, technology, quality of faculty, etc. Second, there should be uniform curriculum void of religion and politics. And third, there must be zero tolerance regarding racism, bullying, gangs, drugs, alcohol, etc. IMO as long as we cannot achieve this we won't be able to improve public education...

 

And immigrant families who are leaving your citizens in the shade, academically. At the same schools. How can that be? Could it be the difference in parenting?

 

I agree with this. But ONLY vocational courses should be fully funded. Nothing in the Arts/Humanities should be free or even subsidised, since these courses do not lead to employment, and are therefore not vocational. They are courses for rich hobbyists, and so they should be paid for privately.

 

No, it is not. Eugenics is a system which attempts to encourage reproduction by the fittest, in the same manner that natural evolution does. Health, and a lack of harmful genetic traits, such as hemophilia, diabetes, schizophrenia, bipolar disorders, etc are also at issue. IMO if a diabetic has one or two children that is normal--but having eight or ten, as someone I know did, is irresponsible.

Additionally, few believe that either genetics (heredity) or environment alone determine intelligence--most believe each plays an important role.

 

oh my...you are so very wrong...i've twin daughters both with fine arts degrees, both fully employed well paid home owners and only 27yrs old, the younger one has been fielding offers from silicon valley internet employers to move there....and from their graduating classmates only a handful do not have long term employment, and most of those have short term jobs...

there is a huge popular misconception that art student have no real career opportunities, and now they're rich hobbyists? ...rich hobbyists? they're never were, all educational bills paid with minimum wage jobs...jobs potential for art students are enormous, they take their fine art training into nearly every industry...virtually no part of your life hasn't been touched fine art graduates...the car you drive, the home you live in, the clothes you wear, the furniture you sit on, the websites you visit everyday, magazines you read, the movies you watch, video games your kids play....any product you buy has been modified by an art student to encourage you to purchase it...art students shape our entire world and you had no idea...

 

You realize that IQ scales are based on a bell curve and that is exactly the percentages you should expect from a bell curve. You have a nothing burger here.

 

Exactly. If 10% of the population didn't have an IQ lower than 83, then the test is invalid and flawed.

 

Mines 142 or higher (top 1%), but posters don't have to listen to me if they don't want to. Go MENSA!

 

"Mines"... mensa?
we can claim to be anything we want to be on the internet.

 

I'm talking about the belief that IQ is entirely genetic. That definitely makes it eugenics .. whether or not it's acted upon is irrelevant.

 

Sure, sure. Fine Arts degrees are vocational, sure. Like a Medical or Engineering degree .. just like that

Meantime, yes, Arts/Humanities should attract full (high) fees. Such fields have traditionally always been the province of the independently wealthy, who didn't need to work for a living. They should remain so.

 

Took me one post to destroy the OP. I could care less what you believe. You choose your path at your own peril.

 

People that believe intelligence is merely due to genetics are misinformed, but that does not automatically mean they support eugenics.

The more enlightened approach to genetic management is to fully inform the prospective parents and then leave them to make sensible reproductive decisions, based upon their willingness and ability to provide care. Where this is insufficient due to mental incapacity, IMO incentives for long term contraception after one or two children should be provided--not financial incentives to have more.

 

oh you do care a great deal what others think or you wouldn't be BSing us about mensa...you're insecure, you want us to be in awe of you ... ...sorry no one here is impressed or cares...

are you so naive as to believe anyone here believes you?...and that we tremble in fear of your imaginary immense intellect?

I know many brilliant people, none of them feel the need to boast about how smart they are, their words do that for them...

mesa...

 

I find this rather shocking.

At the post grad level, Education students don't believe in either IQ or intelligence? I think that right there could explain the failure of American education.

 

A near moron should stand out, my applied IQ is in that range as in functioning on the job for example due to major cognitive issues but my IQ is high liquid or raw under a standard test when done for a much longer period of time when I can focus on it so its frustrating. So I know what the low IQ go through when I tried to work and couldn't function well so got stuck doing simple work and well it makes my employability now exceedingly hard. Medications when I tried did eliminate the barriers and I was a whole different level of functioning but the side effects were very bad so had to stop using them.

So lets be blunt if people are like me off medications to correct the issue we are as a group unemployable I could stuff envelops, pick up dog doo for money, work an assembly line with enough training help doing repetitive work and do other simple work find jobs like that now in the USA. So trust me in my view all your debate on education and other factors not very disadvantageous such as a slum crime ridden area with parents not around many measures your mentioning here are pointless. In school I had to work five times harder or more to hold my own and this carried to everything else in my life and I got tired trying so hard in the end with my other disabilities my life was going to be on welfare since its the only option.

Now maybe in decades we will have implants to boost IQ or something but not now. Until then the low IQ must be considered a major disability condition like blindness and benefits should go out to those who nature made near morons. I'm a near moron in key ways. Its not bad and people so poorly functioning are not bad people but the society in modern countries left them behind and me due to advancing technology and limited options.

As for selective breeding which is what you seem to have people mentioning it won't fly in the USA and it would be deemed a violation of rights and privacy among other rights such as treaties which gives people blanket protections for self determination as well. And lets be blunt Nazi's had that philosophy so seriously good luck trying that policy.

Prove me wrong I'm no genius but live my life and have first hand experience with the kind of mental skills people like we are discussing you all don't and know enough the fixes your talking about won't work.