The atomic bombs dropped in WW2 were unecessary.

Discussion in 'Nuclear, Chemical & Bio Weapons' started by Vegas giants, Dec 31, 2018.

  1. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    Yes.

    Our bombing was directed towards military objectives. Any civilians killed were collateral damage.
     
  2. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    Who are you talking to, and who would ever say that’s OK? W Who are you talking to, and who would ever say that’s OK?WTF?
     
  3. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    Whatever it takes to win. Winning was everything. Our ground troops deserved a break. So it was very, very good to nuke Japan.
     
  4. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    Answer directly. Was or was not the goal to kill as many civilians as possible? And do you consider that the way a moral nation wages war?
     
  5. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    Man is a natural born killer. When a man's government tells him to kill he should feel good about it. And he should kill with ferocity.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
  6. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    When you have to kill civilians to break a government's will, that's just too bad.

    It will always be so, and it will happen again and again.

    The North did it to the South, but it was understandable, because winning is everything and the only thing.

    I'm a Southerner, but I well understand war. I don't hold it against the North.

    We would have done it to the North if we could have. It's just war. It must be won. And won at any cost to the enemy.

    Open bomb bay!
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
  7. Capt Nice

    Capt Nice Well-Known Member

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    jay runner likes this.
  8. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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  9. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    No, that's the truth. Our bombing was directed towards military objectives.
     
  10. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    Now you’ve given up your self-respect. When all you’re left with is dishonesty, you’ve thrown in the towel.
     
  11. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    There is no morality in war.

    I'm very, very glad many Japanese civilians were killed with fire bombing and nuking so US troops could return home sooner. Much of my family were among US fighting men who didn't have invade Japan. I'm so glad, very happy about that. Winning is everything and the only thing.
     
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  12. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    Real military leaders, then and now, would have no use for the likes of you beyond cannon-fodder.
     
  13. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    I was cannon-fodder. I well understood that. All my family has been enlisted cannon-fodder.
     
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  14. Capt Nice

    Capt Nice Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I didn't know you were thin skinned and unable to answer a simple question. Go play in your own sandbox.
     
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  15. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    Do you need that on an excel file, boss?
     
  16. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Not true at all. In fact, most wars end not with a surrender, but with an armistice. An actual surrender is really an unusual way for a war to end. Historically either both sides simply agreed to stop fighting, or one is utterly destroyed and there is really nobody left to surrender.

    In fact, technically one of the longest wars going on today did not end with a surrender but with an armistice. And since the actual war itself has never been resolved, the Korean War is still active.

    In the First World War, it also ended with an armistice, hence 11 November being remembered as "Armistice Day". Very different than after WWII when you had VE and VJ days.

    Now that may happen because one side is utterly destroyed militarily and wants to avoid an actual invasion of their home territories (Gulf War I), the government in power of one of the nations has collapsed and the new government wants to end the conflict (Germany in WWI), or because both sides are essentially tired of fighting a war that will go on much longer than any wishes to continue (Korean War).

    Actual surrender (capitulation) is actually very unusual in warfare when it comes to warring parties. Generally that is only seen in specific units involved in a conflict, not by the nations themselves. Because quite literally that nation (or organization) is essentially giving away everything they had been fighting for, including their own freedom and even lives.
     
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  17. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    I like the idea of the fire bombing, the nuking and the surrender. It's the only war the USA has won for 74 years. It's the last time the USA waged war properly.

    Be sure to enlist and reup. Just on the off chance you might get to participate in a war the USA wins in the future. It's not likely, but it's possible.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
  18. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Japan only surrendered when after 2 atomic bombs and the invasion of Manchuko their war council became deadlocked and the Prime Minister asked the Emperor for his decision. If not for that it would have continued.

    And the reason for avoiding Tokyo was rather obvious. The city had already been almost completely destroyed after the firebombings of 1944-1945. Most of the city was already in ruins so there was no military target left to hit. It must be remembered that the first targets were key military sites, and eliminating them was important if invasion was still required.

    I read somewhere that the idea of Tokyo being a target was being held for the 4th or 5th bomb. The Allied Powers thought it was critical to keep the Emperor and his family alive, as there was nobody else that could have surrendered. Only after 3 or 4 bombs would it have been obvious that there would never be a surrender, therefore killing Emperor Showa and most of his immediate family would be required as a for of drastic "Regime Change" in order to find somebody who would surrender.

    And there were other targets much more important militarily than Tokyo. Kyoto, Yokohama, Niigata, and Kobe to start with. In fact, the next bomb was already being assembled at the Mariana Island base when the surrender was announced, and it was expected to be used on 19 August. That would have seen the city of Kokura targeted with a "Fat Man" plutonium bomb.

    Kokura had already been saved twice. It was the prime backup target for the first bomb, and t was the primary target for the second bomb. But heavy cloud cover forced Bockscar to divert to Nagasaki. It was a major industrial city, with most of the industry dedicated to making arms and munitions for the Imperial Japanese Army. It also had sizeable arsenals of weapons being held for distribution of an invasion of the home islands themselves.

    Each targeted city was either a major command, staging, or industrial city. Tokyo was only a target politically.

    And "Bomb Away LaMay" was a true believer in strategic bombing, and believed that enemies could be bombed into surrender without an actual invasion. Which is not true, it depends on the enemy involved. For Japan, it must be remembered that it had already lost 2 territories (one of which it had ruled for over 300 years) The US taking Okinawa would have been like somebody taking North Island or Auckland Island away from New Zealand. And it was 50-50 as to if that would cause the Japanese people to consider surrender, or simply to fight harder in order to win.
     
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  19. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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  20. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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  21. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    No, was not just "Propaganda".

    Apparently you do not understand Japanese culture.

    First of all, in many ways they are even more fanatical than the extreme Muslims are. They followed a religion (Shinto) where the Emperor was also a living God. And that dying in the service of their Emperor assured them a place in heaven. That is why there was little problem in recruiting kamikaze or baka bomb pilots.

    It is also the only major religion that does not have a prohibition against suicide. Absolutely none. While most Abrahamic religions accept the cause of a martyr to die in trying to achieve their goal, they prohibit actual suicide itself. Not so in Shinto, a cultural belief that killing oneself removes dishonor is still alive and well. That is why it has the highest suicide rates among modern nations.

    Fail to get into a school you want, loose a job, your marriage fails, just kill yourself. Doing so removes the stain of dishonor.

    And you can see this all too well at Saipan. Where horrified Marines looked on as entire families of Japanese civilians went to the cliffs and threw themselves off rather than surrender. Even the Nisei who were born and raised in the US and fought as translators were horrified, they were a generation or more removed from Japan and most did not understand why they would do that.

    If you think they would not have fought to the death to protect their Living God, you are "childishly naïve".
     
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  22. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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  23. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    I understand quite well. Not your little boy anime fantasy, but in reality.
     
  24. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Wrong. Those were overtures for an Armistice, not for Surrender. Basically Japan wanted to roll the clock back to 1941. All lands return to the prior

    They are not the same thing, and the Allied Powers would never accept them. They had learned their lesson after the First World War, and would not allow an armistice at that time to allow an even more deadly war in the future.

    Actually, I can't. Last year I re-enlisted for the last time, for a contract of 6 years.

    When it ends I will be 59, and the mandatory retirement age is 60.
     
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  25. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    *laughs*

    OK, now I understand how seriously to take you in this debate. Not at all in other words.

    And yes, I have actually lived in Japan. I spent a great amount of time with the people while living on Okinawa, and even got to know Tomiko Higa. She and I had many conversations over a period of several months, and several of us actually hired her as a tour guide for a day. We spent that day touring various battle and historical sites around the island as she talked about her memories of the war and it's aftermath.

    In fact, I have to admit I do not take you seriously at all. I wonder how many in here actually understand that your name literally translates to "Dripping Poop"? You are simply one of a great many trolls that have infested us here, and are not to be taken seriously at all.
     
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