About the Holocaust

Discussion in 'Middle East' started by stan1990, Mar 11, 2019.

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Do you agree with the thoughts expressed in this thread?

Poll closed Apr 10, 2019.
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  1. ThirdTerm

    ThirdTerm Well-Known Member

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    These "partial-Jews" (Mischlinge) managed to hide or disguise their Jewish ancestry from the Gestapo because their mothers were German and they were raised as Christians. The best way for their survival was to prove their Aryanhood and serve in the army, which is similar to Japanese Americans who fought for the United States to avoid internment camps.



     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  2. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    According to historian, Bryan Rigg, not only "Mischlinge" served in Hitler's armies but hundreds of "Full Jews" served with Hitler's full knowledge and approval:

    EXCERPT "Thousands of men of Jewish descent and hundreds of what the Nazis called ‘full Jews’ served in the German military with Adolf Hitler’s knowledge and approval.

    Cambridge University researcher Bryan Rigg has traced the Jewish ancestry of more than 1,200 of Hitler’s soldiers, including two field marshals and fifteen generals (two full generals, eight lieutenant generals, five major generals), « men commanding up to 100,000 troops."CONTINUED (1)


    Based on my relatively brief military service, I found it very hard for any individual to hide anything in one's background from people with whom you spend your entire time.
    Additionally, one doesn't rise to the highest ranks without the fullest commitment to the organization.

    Historian Veronica Clark adds:

    EXCERPT "Hitler continued to allow thousands of Jewish men to serve, and many did so with incredible tenacity and valor. One has to call into question whether all of these Jewish men and other non-Germans were really as opposed to the Nazi regime as they have claimed after the fact. Their tenacity and determination suggests otherwise in many cases. The Jewish soldiers Bernhard Rogge, Helmuth Wilberg, Erhard Milch, and Ernst Prager come to mind."CONTINUED

    Not only Jews, but about 2 million Slavs, Blacks, Asians, Ukrainians, Frenchmen, Spaniards & other non Germans fought for Germany during WW 2 which calls in to question the rigidity of Germany's "Race Laws".


    (1) "‘JEWISH’ SENIOR OFFICERS IN HITLER’S ARMY: ERHARD MILCH, WILHELM KEITEL, WALTHER VON BRAUCHITSCH, ERICH RAEDER, AND MAXIMILIAN VON WEICHS."
    https://rafzen.wordpress.com/2013/0...itsch-erich-raeder-and-maximilian-von-weichs/


    (2) "Adolf Hitler’s Armed Forces: A Triumph for Diversity?"
    https://www.inconvenienthistory.com/1/3/3102
     
  3. ThirdTerm

    ThirdTerm Well-Known Member

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    Out of 1,200 Jewish soldiers Rigg identified, hundreds were ‘full Jews’, while others were Mischlinge soldiers. One of these Jewish veterans is Erhard Milch and Goering falsified Milch's birth record on his behalf. It sounds more reasonable than the 150,000 figure.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
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  4. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

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    Hitler was a weak dictator. He hated Jews and wanted to get rid of them. But the idea of mass murder came from his subordinates Himmler, Heydrich, etc.

    Hitler knew about it and let it happen. He never visited any of the extermination camps. I suppose he had repressed what's going on there. Hitler could have stopped the Holocaust at any time. He couldn't stand the atrocities but on the other hand he believed that it must be done to save the "Aryan Race".
     
  5. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In playing the Devil's advocate, I think that Hitler was conflicted about Jews. He had Jewish friends in Vienna during art school, was grateful to a supportive Jewish art dealer, very fond of his Jewish sergeant during WW 2, allowed Jews to serve in the highest ranks of Germany's military and had a platonic friendship with a young Jewish girl that is worth reading about(1).

    Unlike Stalin, Moa, Pol Pot, Genrikh Yagoda & other murderous dictators, Hitler loved dogs and even allowed his dog, Blondi, to sleep in his bed with him.

    On the other hand, he violently objected to the murderous Jewish Bolsheviks who gained control of Russia from the Czar and feared that they would do the same in Germany.

    As you know, no written order from Hitler to kill all of Europe's Jews has ever been found and probably never existed(2)

    Briefly put, I don't think that Hitler hated Jews on a one-to-one basis but was responding to the Jewish declaration of war on Germany (aka global boycott)(3) feared Zionist Bolshevism which he viewed as primarily Jewish driven and a threat to all of Europe and specifically a weakened Germany.




    (1) Remarkable tale of Hitler's young Jewish friend"
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46192941


    (2) “To the present day a written order by Hitler regarding the destruction of the European Jewish community has not been found, and, in all probability, this order was never given.”

    - Walter Laqueur, Was niemand wissen wollte: Die Unterdruckung der Nachrichten uber Hitlers Endlösung (What Nobody Wanted to Know: The Suppression of News About Hitler’s “Final Solution”), (Berlin-Vienna, 1981), p.190


    "The Jewish Declaration of War on Nazi Germany"
    The Economic Boycott of 1933

    https://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/jdecwar.html
     
  6. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Re:
    Please state the number of full Jews & Mischlings you feel is more reasonable than 150,000 and why.(1)

    Also, please note that historian Victoria Clark concurs with the figure of 150,000 and asserts that 2 million non Germans (Blacks, Arabs, Slavs, Asians, Frenchmen, Spaniards etc) also served in Germany's WW 2 military(2)


    (1) "Hitler's Jewish Soldiers"
    https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Jewish-Soldiers-Descent-Military/dp/0700613587


    EXCERPT "Contrary to conventional views, Rigg reveals that a startlingly large number of German military men were classified by the Nazis as Jews or "partial-Jews" (Mischlinge), in the wake of racial laws first enacted in the mid-1930s. Rigg demonstrates that the actual number was much higher than previously thought-perhaps as many as 150,000 men, including decorated veterans and high-ranking officers, even generals and admirals."CONTINUED


    (2) "Adolf Hitler’s Armed Forces: A Triumph for Diversity?"
    https://www.inconvenienthistory.com/1/3/3102

    EXCERPTS " I ask those historians who still believe that Hitler and the Nazis were “white supremacists”: how do you account for the incredible degree of non-German and ethnic minority (i.e., 150,000 Jews and Jewish Mischlinge) collaboration during World War II? Again, some two million non-Germans helped the Nazis.

    The Nazis never racially segregated their troops. Blacks, Slavs, Asians, and Arabs fought shoulder-to-shoulder with Germans."CONTINUED
     
  7. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

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    Many Germans from the Nazi era knew some Jews as good people. But the community of all Jews was considered a deadly danger. This is how conspiracy theories work.

    From the Posen speech:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posen_speeches
     
  8. ThirdTerm

    ThirdTerm Well-Known Member

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    Many researchers consider this number an exaggeration and dismiss Rigg, who teaches at the online American Military University, as publicity hungry. "This is not a bombshell," Raul Hilberg, one of the deans of Holocaust scholarship, recently told The Chronicle of Higher Education. "We have known that there were thousands" of men with Jewish roots "in the German army." Some also have taken aim at the book's title. After all, Rigg himself says that only 60 percent of the "half Jews" and only 30 percent of the "quarter Jews" who served as soldiers were Jewish according to Jewish law. Many didn't even know they were Jewish because their families had assimilated.

    http://germanamericanpioneers.org/documents/MicrosoftWord-15000inGermanArmy.pdf
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
  9. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Re:
    I'm not quite sure in what context you mean "the community of all Jews" as there has been anti Semitism throughout Europe over the centuries.
    Meanwhile Europe's German Jews prospered more than Jews living in most other countries.

    I suspect that German Jews & non Jews got along reasonably well until the International Jewish boycott (World Zionist Organization) (1) ignited anti Jewish sentiment among hard core Nazis and gave them an excuse to regard most German Jews as enemies of the state.

    Finally, how does the Posen speech relate to what we're discussing?


    Thanks,




    (1) "The Jewish Declaration of War on Nazi Germany"
    The Economic Boycott of 1933

    https://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/jdecwar.html
     
  10. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

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    I mean the Jewish people at a whole. Nazis believed that all Jews form a conspiracy that wants to exterminate the "Aryan Race". The whole world view of the Nazis was a huge bullshit.

    They taught their children "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" at school and told them that this is the truth.
    --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

    This is one of the few historical documents, by which a Nazi-criminal of high rank himself reported on persecution of Jews and mass murder.
     
  11. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

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    The protocals of zion is a fiction book and nobody teaches it to anyone
     
  12. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

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  13. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

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  14. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

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    But the children of the Nazis should believe that the "Protocols" are authentic. Anti-Semitic Propaganda does not work if you tell the people that it's all fake.
     
  15. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

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    That's what it was made for, non Jews, for hate.
    All Jew haters want to believe it is authentic.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
  16. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

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  17. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It sounds like you've got the wrong Bryan Rigg as the author of "Hitler's Jewish Soldiers" got his PhD from Cambridge University and is currently working on another book.

    Additionally, in a meeting with Rigg,(1) Hilburg admitted that he hadn't even read the book but just didn't like the title or the facts Rigg relates that runs contrary to the standard holocaust narrative. After reading the book, Hilburg could find nothing wrong with Rigg's research or the facts he relates.

    Actually, historians support Rigg like: "... such historians like Michael Berenbaum, Robert Citino, Stephen Fritz, James Corum, Paula Hyman, Nathan Stoltzfus, Norman Naimark, Jonathan Steinberg, Geoffrey Megargee, Dennis Showalter and James Tent. He [Rigg] has published several other books since then: Rescued From the Reich, with a foreword by Paula Hyman (Yale University Press 2004), Lives of Hitler's Jewish Soldiers (Kansas, 2009) and The Rabbi Saved by Hitler's Soldiers, with a foreword by Michael Berenbaum (Kansas, 2016).(2)

    Other than not liking the title, no one has been able to refute the fact the 150,000 full Jews & "Mischlings" served in Germany's WW 2 military with many rising to the highest ranks and some receiving Germany's highest military honors with Hitler's full knowledge & approval.

    Of course the fraudulent holocaust industry(3) & it's high priests are going to resent a thoroughly researched & credible work that refutes their standard holocaust narrative that all Jews under German control were either incarcerated and/or exterminated.
    If 150,000 Jews served in Germany's military, how many other Jews served the 3rd Reich in other capacities and how strictly were Germany's "Race Laws" really enforced?




    (1) "Hitler’s Jewish Soldiers—Interview with Historian Bryan Mark Rigg"
    https://phiquyenchinh.org/2017/10/0...ers-interview-with-historian-bryan-mark-rigg/


    (2) Bryan Mark Rigg
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Mark_Rigg


    (3) "HOLOCAUST CLAIMS CONFERENCE FRAUD LIKELY ‘MUCH HIGHER’ THAN $57 MILLION"
    http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Holoc...aud-likely-much-higher-than-57-million-408298

    EXCERPT "Writing to the Claims Conference’s board last week, recently terminated ombudsman Shmuel Hollander asserted that, while reports had said organizational insiders had siphoned off $57 million in German taxpayer funds meant for survivors, “the final sum is in all probability much higher.”

    ”CONTINUED
     
  18. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Do you believe that "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" are based in any way on some of the ugly teachings of the Talmud?

    If the Nazis who comprised 5% - 10% of the German population wanted to teach school children that the Jews of the world wanted to exterminate the "Aryan Race", all they needed to do was point to the international Jewish boycott of Germany enacted by the WZO (World Zionist Organization) as a truthful example(1)

    Re:
    It's been decades since I read the lengthy Posen speech in the original German (my German is quite rusty now) but I do not recall Himmler openly declaring how many Jews were exterminated, where they were exterminated or how they were exterminated. I do remember Himmler's repeated use of the word "Judenevakuierung" and since then reading phrases taken out of context, "cherry picking", words with double meanings being misused & other distortions of the speech to make it seem more ominous than it really is.
    Briefly put, it seems weak as the only evidence of a massive, widely communicated & clear intent to exterminate all Jews under German control (4.5 Million according to the Wannsee Conference minutes).

    Much less has been published about the far more reliable intercepted German radio transmissions none of which discusses mass extermination, gas chambers etc:

    “THE HOLOCAUST NARRATIVE” by Nicholas Kollerstrom
    https://archive.org/stream/BreakingTheSpell_48/BreakingTheSpell-Kollerstrom_djvu.txt

    EXCERPT “In 1941, British Intelligence analysts cracked the German “Enigma” code. This undermined the German war effort—but also threw new light on day-by-day events in the Nazi concentration camp system. Between January 1942 and January 1943, encrypted radio communications between those camps and the Berlin headquarters were intercepted and decrypted.

    Oddly enough, historians have largely ignored the information furnished in these intercepts relating to “arrivals,” “departures,” recorded deaths and other events at these camps.The only reasonable explanation is that the intercepted data contra-dicts, even refutes, the orthodox “Holocaust” narrative.

    The information does not expose a program of mass murder and racial genocide. Quite the opposite: it reveals that the Germans were determined, desperate even, to reduce the death rate in their work camps, which was caused by catastrophic typhus epidemics.”CONTINUED



    (1) "Jews Declare War on Germany 1933"
    https://archive.org/stream/JewsDeclareWarOnGermany1933/JewsDeclareWarOnGermany1933_djvu.txt

    EXCERPT "Judea Declares War on Germany!" - Daily Express headline, March 24, 1933.

    "Judea Declares War on Germany! Jews of all the World Unite! Boycott of German Goods!

    Mass Demonstrations!" - These were all headlines in the Daily Express on March 24, 1933.

    "The Israeli people around the world declare economic and financial war against Germany.
    Fourteen million Jews stand together as one man, to declare war against Germany. The Jewish
    wholesaler will forsake his firm, the banker his stock exchange, the merchant his commerce and
    the pauper his pitiful shed in order to join together in a holy war against Hitler's people." - Daily
    Express, March 24, 1933."CONTINUED
     
  19. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

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    That's very possible
     
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  20. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

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    radio transmissions aren't going to discuss any of this.
    Most was not known until the end, and after the war.
     
  21. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How else would the Nazis communicate if not through encrypted ( they thought) radio transmission...... E-mail?

    Much was known about what was going on in the Third Reich by aerial surveillance, reports from Resistance Groups, German defectors, POWs and the decoding of the German Enigma encryption, however:

    EXCERPT "Oddly enough, historians have largely ignored the information furnished in these intercepts relating to “arrivals,” “departures,” recorded deaths and other events at these camps.The only reasonable explanation is that the intercepted data contra-dicts, even refutes, the orthodox “Holocaust” narrative.

    The information does not expose a program of mass murder and racial genocide. Quite the opposite: it reveals that the Germans were determined, desperate even, to reduce the death rate in their work camps, which was caused by catastrophic typhus epidemics.”CONTINUED(1)





    (1) “THE HOLOCAUST NARRATIVE” by Nicholas Kollerstrom
    https://archive.org/stream/BreakingTheSpell_48/BreakingTheSpell-Kollerstrom_djvu.txt
     
  22. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

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    What's wrong with the Talmud? Talmud is a religious scripture such as Bible and Quran. All three contain many crazy things about what we atheists shake our heads. But for the believers, it makes pretty sense. They have a completely different understanding of that stuff as we have.
    Misunderstandings are always a big problem.

    Mass extermination was the final option. The Nazis first collected their Jews into Ghettos because they planned to send them overseas (to Madagascar, Palestine, whatever). But then all these plans failed. They decided, out of necessity, to kill all Jewish prisoners. Thus, Auschwitz and the extermination camps of "Action Reinhardt" came into consideration.
     
  23. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    What I seem to be hearing here is because there are other atrocities we should diminish the horrors of the Holocaust
     
  24. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I interpret the premise of the OP to be that there is a disproportionate amount of media and school fixation on the holocaust when there have been so many equal or greater mass tragedies about which people know nothing.
    I can think of no one who has not heard the name Hitler & most are familiar with some version of the standard holocaust narrative but very few have even heard the name Genrikh Yagoda(1) who is directly responsible for the deaths of 10 million or have any idea how miserably they died.
    Those who maintain that the holocaust was, somehow, more profound because some of its victims were Jewish exhibit a disturbing form of racism.
    We are as equal in death as we are equal in life.


    (1) "Stalin's Jews"
    "We mustn't forget that some of greatest murderers of modern times were Jewish"

    https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html
    EXCERPT "And us, the Jews? An Israeli student finishes high school without ever hearing the name "Genrikh Yagoda," the greatest Jewish murderer of the 20th Century, the GPU's deputy commander and the founder and commander of the NKVD. Yagoda diligently implemented Stalin's collectivization orders and is responsible for the deaths of at least 10 million people." CONTINUED
     
  25. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Talmud has some very ugly & specific precepts that permits Jews to cheat, kill or otherwise defraud non Jews that could have been used to inflame anti Jewish sentiment.

    Re:
    I am unaware of any specific order from Hitler(1) or widely understood policy that called for the destruction of all Jews under German control(2),(3).

    Since 150,000 Jews served in Germany's military, there were obviously exceptions just as there were high ranking Jews who were Nazis(4) and who knows how many other exceptions were made for members of Germany's old, well connected Jewish families who had lived harmoniously with their fellow Germans for generations.
    Please remember that at its highest point only 10% of all Germans were members of the Nazi Party

    What diminishes the standard holocaust narrative more than anything is the enormous number of frauds seeking easy money, fame, and / or attention:

    "Seventeen Charged With Holocaust Fraud"
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/seventeen-charged-with-holocaust-fraud






    (1) “To the present day a written order by Hitler regarding the destruction of the European Jewish community has not been found, and, in all probability, this order was never given.”

    - Walter Laqueur, Was niemand wissen wollte: Die Unterdruckung der Nachrichten uber Hitlers Endlösung (What Nobody Wanted to Know: The Suppression of News About Hitler’s “Final Solution”), (Berlin-Vienna, 1981), p.190


    (2) "The Wannsee Conference: Another Lie Crushed"
    http://barnesreview.org/the-wannsee-conference-another-lie-crushed/

    EXCERPT "The actual minutes of the Wannsee Conference can be read in their entirety—in the original German here,

    In reality, the Wannsee meeting and its minutes do not contain a master plan to kill Jews;

    – Nowhere in the meeting’s minutes is genocide discussed, planned, proposed, or even suggested;

    – The Wannsee meeting never discussed gas chambers, shootings, or any of the fantasies propagated by the exterminationists"CONTINUED


    (3) “THE HOLOCAUST NARRATIVE” by Nicholas Kollerstrom
    https://archive.org/stream/BreakingTheSpell_48/BreakingTheSpell-Kollerstrom_djvu.txt

    EXCERPT “In 1941, British Intelligence analysts cracked the German “Enigma” code. This undermined the German war effort—but also threw new light on day-by-day events in the Nazi concentration camp system. Between January 1942 and January 1943, encrypted radio communications between those camps and the Berlin headquarters were intercepted and decrypted.

    Oddly enough, historians have largely ignored the information furnished in these intercepts relating to “arrivals,” “departures,” recorded deaths and other events at these camps.The only reasonable explanation is that the intercepted data contra-dicts, even refutes, the orthodox “Holocaust” narrative.

    The information does not expose a program of mass murder and racial genocide. Quite the opposite: it reveals that the Germans were determined, desperate even, to reduce the death rate in their work camps, which was caused by catastrophic typhus epidemics.”CONTINUED


    (4) "List of Nazis of non-Germanic descent"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nazis_of_non-Germanic_descent
    EXCERPT "Notably, there were several high-ranking Nazis of Jewish descent."CONTINUED
     

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