Religious discussion

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I already know all about it.. and jesus the king James came out in 1611

 

You are 100% wrong. The word "Jesus" is not in the authentic 1611 KJV.

 

Some beliefs do matter, for instance, secularism is a belief in itself. However, secularism grew out of the acknowledgement that people of different faiths will not be able to simply merge their faiths (at least not short term) so we need to have a system in which neither group gets treated worse than others.

This doesn't stop us from making absolutes. Materialism is not necessarily true, but it provides us with plenty of answers which hold true in a world in which we don't know what is true (mostly by establishing areas which we know are true). For instance, a secular place like arguably America, Sweden, China, have no problem establishing that murder is bad.

In practice, many religions and philosophies agree on a lot of stuff. You will say it is because God has implanted morals in us, I will say it's because people have made religions to reflect human concerns, but the actual reason doesn't matter, there is a reason why we both think murder is bad, and we can make rules based on it.

 

I would imagine because we don't want to be murdered. I never wanted to belong to a religion that was invented to "reflect human concerns". As I have tried to stress, human concerns are fickle. On one hand we have those that do not respect the right to own property and think it is only a comodity to redistribute. On the other hand there are those that are concerned about oppressing others by monopolizing the economy. Both, I'm sure can make moral justifications in "their own eyes". I don't believe God left us without a "Way". Hearts have to be changed. Government is only a means of protecting the innocent, though it often works to the contrary. I nor my predecessors "invented" God. You have us wrong there.

 

Yes and from that 'secular' springboard grow to the 66million dogmatic religious rules we have in our secular religion here in america today, by imposing our secular religion upon the Mormons to insure they dont have more than one wife and damned if we secularists are going to let those Christains can get away with refusing to bake a gay cake, we commercial secularists will stomp their heads and bankrupt them for their sins.

Lets see how does that religion go again? Oh yeh, Our dollar who art in heaven.... Thou shalt not take thy Lord Dollar's name in vain. Welcome to the desert of the real...... American government! LOL

 

It has always been defined that way. The Greeks had several words for love. My definition is Agape....unconditional love. The Beatles used the definition of "eros".....erotic fleshly love, Philidelphia is named after Phileo.....brotherly love. So for discussion sake, I always use my definition. Unconditional love is there regardless of your actions, until you want to be removed from it. It is a matter of "choice".

 

So, if the definition of love is the problem, then an all powerful god could change it.

 

No....you don't get off that easy. He wants you to change it! Admit your inadequate to do it independent of Him. That would be a start!

 

So, again, why does anything have to be hard? Why am I inadequate?

 

Hard things build character....what, are you a millenial or something? You are inadequate because you are a flawed human being. It is the human condition.

 

Why do hard things build character? Why am I flawed? Why is it the human condition?

 

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe a life of leisure and narcissism builds character....you tell me. Maybe you don't see you have flaws. Maybe you are one of the many elite that should show the rest of us how to live. I have sinned and I fall short of perfection. So has everyone but you.

 

No, I'm only human. and sure, you learn from bad experience. But why? Why do bad things even exist?

 

The will to not be murdered doesn't seem fickle to me, yet it seems to be a central human concern. Your interpretation of "human concerns" seem to be different than mine. I'm referring to ones like not wanting to be murdered, not wanting injustice etc. The human concerns that are fickle are not the ones I'm talking about.

I agree that it's a problem that people tend to choose the moral framework that is beneficial to them at the time, but I don't think that is any worse a problem for me than it is for you. People have been interpreting the Bible and Christianity (as well as other religions) left and right forever, and more often than not in favour of themselves. I'm sure Christian oligarchs have no shortage of theology to help them sleep at night.

The religious angle to this doesn't give society any better a ground to stand on. It's true that it can give individuals better ground to stand on, but that's not necessarily a good thing when it that person then comes in contact with other people with other, equally firm grounds to stand on.

 

Prove it.

 

Do you think that if we lived in a world where there were no bad things there would be any challenges? When you think about it, challenges are what makes life interesting. Most of the time, I think we overcome those challenges (an awful lot of them anyway). We get a feeling of gratefulness and satisfaction for having done so. It gives us a sense of purpose. That is why we keep score in sports. I love basketball and baseball. I get really excited in a close game at the end. Why? Well the fact we keep score makes it exciting. I know a lot of Progressives think children should learn to play without keeping score. They think life should have no challenges. If it came down to that, I don't think I would even want to play. Neither do I think most of the good players I admire would even want to play. Life is like that.

The reason bad things happen is because of what I will choose to call "sin". Sin is wrong choices. Any choice you make that is not perfect or "Holy" no matter how big or small is perpetuating.. A world without sin is like a clear lake, smooth as glass. Many people are on the shore line. One decides to toss in a pebble. It's action causes a ripple that radiates in all direction. The result is a small ripple that radiates to ALL shorelines. It is not without consequence. Soon many others toss in pebbles, even a few toss in grains of sand. There are a few that take it upon themselves to throw in a few river rock and one or two even chuck in a boulder. Nevertheless, all have contributed and the shoreline is effected in ALL directions. Those objects cast in the water represent evil. Some to a large degree, some to a very minute degree, but everyone effects that glass like water to some degree. We all throw in something. Though we do this, it is our "nature", it is my honest, sincere belief the Creator of all things, who foreknew this situation, provided a way out, and at great cost. He did it out of "LOVE".

The most important reason "bad experiences " happen, is due to choice. Without choice, there cannot be "Love". As a kid I used to play a lot with toy soldiers. I gave them imaginary names. They were made in human likeness except they made no choices. When I left the room....they just stood there. I currently have two dogs. When I leave the room, they follow me everywhere. Not because I feed them or even play with them.....they know who I am. They make that choice. God has that desire that we be like those dogs. That is why we have choice. That is why we have love. God would like to "empower" us to stop throwing "big things" in the water. If we did the shoreline would eventually not be so eroded. Because it is Him that empowers us, we can take no credit, because if we did, that would result in "pride".....another big chunk of stone to throw into the lake. That is my explanation and I am not just giving it to sound "smart". It was revealed to me through a myriad of process, experience, logic, and honestly seeking. I got to a point I was fed up with the many answers to the question you ask that this physical world has to offer. They all seemed so ineffective and self serving.

 

You are correct in what you say. However, the important question is, what do you say regarding this? For years the Bible was kept a secret, only to be read and interpreted by powerful priests and Popes. They often transferred and combined their power with government. The "collective" was ruled by the Priests interpretation. Often language also served as a barrier to hold the Bible into a "private interpretation" to be discerned by a few.
Many have given their lives to put us at liberty to read and interpret for our selves. Many so-called Christians still follow so called churches that want to "administer" truth to a collective. The collective has importance only in the sense it administers accountability among those that seek truth as individuals. The collective should admonish one another but Truth comes through the individual..
Jesus asked Peter, not the collective, "Who do YOU say that I am?"......that is the point. Don't look to others for Truth. You have your own responsibility.

 

So, let's slow down and take your first point: That a world without bad things would be a world without challenges and would be boring. First of all, that's not really a good exchange. I don't see how my boredom justifies children getting cancer. But, more importantly, there's no reason we have to get bored. There is no reason we should need challenges to learn.

Why were we made so badly that we create so much evil? Why were we given the ability to do evil to others, but we weren't given other abilities?

You say that without choice, there cannot be love. Again, why? Who decided that it had to be that way?

I have found that when talking to people about a god, very few if any of them actually believe in a god. They just picture a very powerful human, but in comparison to an all-powerful being, what they imagine is extremely weak. They imagine lot's and lots of limitations on it, and don't think about where those limitations come from.

In the end, there are two possibilities(if we think there is a god). Either something is more powerful than god, or any imperfections in this world only exist to entertain that god.

 

If it's not a good exchange, what would we do if there was no conflict? Explain that? Without challenges what would we do? Admire each other and talk about how good we are? Many do that now. I find it boring. We acknowledge darkness ONLY because we have been shown light.

We weren't made badly. We made wrong choices which made it bad. We are given the ability to do evil to others?.....naw naw, it is our choice. Do you find responsibility to be too great a challenge? We have other abilities....we have great abilities! Just wrong choices!

Guess I am one of the few that you've talked to that actually believe in God. If you want a quick reference, read "Foxe's Book of Martyrs". That would give you proof of quite a number. My God has no limitations except where He chooses to limit Himself. One of those self imposed limitations would be to violate your God-given ability to choose. That would violate His "Law of Love". Love needs to be reciprocated and without the ability to choose, that's impossible. Is that logic? Toy soldiers have no ability to reciprocate.

I just find that a lot of people reject God because they refuse to submit to a higher standard and want to subjugate God to their own. I believe what God said about Himself in my Bible.... "My ways are higher than your ways, my thoughts are higher than your thoughts. Higher than the heavens above the earth are my ways". Heaven does not refer to the sky that we see. It refers to something far greater.

 

Setting murder aside (which addresses self-preservation) discuss "Justice". Whose justice? Is it just for government to extract money from me to supplement abortions which I happen to believe equates to murder? Whose justice do you refer to? Those who believe administrating deadly drugs to those that wish to die are just? Whose justice?

 

If, in fact, a god has no limitations, then there is no reason why we can't live in perfect bliss and contentment. There is no reason that we can't know everything without suffering. Why we can't have all possible enlightenment, and contentment and interest without suffering. In fact it would be just as easy. There is no need for any suffering, in fact no need for any imperfection at all.

Now, even if we accepted that god had no choice but to create suffering, it could easily be done in other ways. Our suffering could be limited to our own choices. Why give children cancer? Why subject them to the abuse of others?

 

Because you are entitled? Because you won't concede any responsibility??

Because you won't be held accountable for the actions of human kind? Sounds like "entilement" to me!

I have cancer as I've shared it before. God did not give it to me. There is a long history of human sin and I am responsible for some of that. I have no regrets and should God not perform a miracle to extend my life longer. I will be content to live with Him for eternity. That's how I roll. In the meantime, I pray for all who have cancer. Especially the little ones.

 

These kinds of arguments are just emotional. The point is that there is no reason for any imperfection. Perfection wouldn't cost any more than imperfection.

So, to be clear, in your mind, it is justifiable to give a kid cancer because they are part of a race who did wrong things because you created them to do wrong things?

 

Ethbaur said....So, to be clear, in your mind, it is justifiable to give a kid cancer because they are part of a race who did wrong things because you created them to do wrong things?[/QUOTE] Who gave the kid cancer? If he fell off a wall....who gave him a concussion? This is the world we were given. You like so many others are having a little tantrum here because you believe, in your mind, you could make a better world. You couldn't do it. The pond would still have many ripples. Don't be so haughty.

 

There are a few things that you either don't understand or are refusing to understand. I'm not having a fit, because I know the entire concept is nonsense. But, more importantly, were I all-powerful, I could make a perfect world. In fact, making a perfect world would be exactly as easy as making an imperfect one. Implicit in your protest is the notion that god was not capable of making things perfect. If it weren't able to do so, then what is the more powerful force keeping it from doing so. For an actual god, making a perfect world shouldn't even be difficult, nothing should.