America has benefitted civilization greatly. Why change it?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by doombug, Sep 8, 2020.

  1. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    America has produced more innovation and lifted more people out of poverty than any civilization that has came before it. People of the world are more free and live more dignified lives because of America.

    These are facts.

    So why are there many folks who want to change America?

    Barry Obama wanted to "fundamentally change" America. Really? Why?

    Why do such people have a problem with America? Is it the freedom? Is it people pursuing happiness?

    Never before has a society enjoyed such equality among its citizens. Some claim there is "systemic racism" but that has not been proven. Some claim the police go around hunting blacks just to kill for sport. Again, nothing backs that claim up. The stats do not match that claim.
     
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  2. AmericaFirst

    AmericaFirst Banned

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    You can have diversity or a highly functioning, cohesive and safe nation. You cannot have both.
     
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  3. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think you're slightly overselling there. There are plenty of positives from the USA but it's also far from perfect or without flaws and failings, historically and currently.

    Unless you're claiming it is unconditionally perfect in every way, why wouldn't you want to make it even better. The open question is how to make it better.

    Obama wanted to win elections and slogans are part of that. I don't believe he wanted truly fundamental change any more than Trump thought America wasn't great in 2016. The state of your political system and the rhetoric that engulfs it is on of the ways America isn't perfect.
     
  4. Lesh

    Lesh Banned

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    America is a great country. No doubt

    That doesn't mean that there aren't things about it that need to be made better.

    There is still big inequality regarding wages...and a big lack of affordable healthcare. How the police treat people of color is a big problem as well.
     
  5. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    What civilization has been or is perfect and without flaws? Anything created or ran by flawed humans will be flawed. Considering that fact makes America a miracle.

    I agree somewhat. Some folks want to tear it down and "rebuild" it. Let's be honest, these folks want communism.

    Obama is an Alinsky follower. Read and learn.
     
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  6. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    You were doing good until you started with the left wing myths.

    Income inequality is not supported by facts. Healthcare? Many have it. The police treatment of blacks is not supported by facts.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2020
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  7. Lesh

    Lesh Banned

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    Republicans seem to be the Alinsky followers.
     
  8. Lesh

    Lesh Banned

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    Left wing myths?

    There isn't income inequality? We have universal healthcare? There is no problem with policing?
     
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  9. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, you're still overselling your fantasy. It makes it a relatively successful nation but nothing like as unique or amazing as you'd like to imagine.

    Some might. Others want a nationalist dictatorship, a fundamentalist theocracy or to get rid of the space alien lizards controlling our brains. They're all part of a tiny minority though. Most normal people just want their lives (and in too few cases, other people's lives) to be a bit better.

    Obama was President for eight years and very little actually changed, just as under his recent predecessors and just like under his successor. If any President actually wanted to make a massive shift in the fundamental nature of the USA, they could (or at least could visibly try). For all the extreme political rhetoric, be it from themselves or their followers, none of them push any large scale changes in what the USA actually is.
     
  10. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    obama is an outright follower.
     
  11. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    No there isn't, who said we should have it, no there isn't.
     
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  12. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    Overselling? Sorry but innovation alone has benefited the world in a big way.

    No one wants a dictatorship. That is the fantasy here.

    So what? obama said he wanted to change America. Now we have left wing loons wanting to change things.
     
  13. Lesh

    Lesh Banned

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    Here's what he said

    "Now, Mizzou, I just have two words for you tonight: five days. Five days. After decades of broken politics in Washington, and eight years of failed policies from George W. Bush, and 21 months of a campaign that's taken us from the rocky coast of Maine to the sunshine of California, we are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America.

    "In five days, you can turn the page on policies that put greed and irresponsibility on Wall Street before the hard work and sacrifice of folks on Main Street. In five days, you can choose policies that invest in our middle class, and create new jobs, and grow this economy, so that everyone has a chance to succeed, not just the CEO, but the secretary and janitor, not just the factory owner, but the men and women on the factory floor."

    And you take issue with that??
     
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  14. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Donor

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    It is a personal intense drive for power by people who think they know better. It is not so much a drive to change or "improve" the country; that is just window dressing.
     
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  15. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Donor

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    Why not? I think you can. America for instance is the most diverse and tolerant country ever.
     
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  16. ECA

    ECA Well-Known Member

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    Funny how doombug conveniently left out the rest of what Obama actually said. Then again, the rest of what Obama said doesn't fit dooms narrative.
     
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  17. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Donor

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    What doombug said is 100% accurate. How is that overselling????

    The progressives and radicals are not trying to make it better; that is just a foil. They want to construct an America in their own image, get in control, and believe (and want us to subscribe) it is better within their own mind.

    Obama most certainly did want to "fundamentally change the United States of America" as he declared. He wanted to decrease our military might, decrease our worldly influence, wanted to radically change the Constitution (as he taught at the University of Chicago), wanted to radically redistribute wealth by government edict, wanted single payer government run health care, and long-term wanted government to totally control the economy in a socialistic manner.

    Obama did not love America. One does not want to fundamentally change what they love. You understand, I trust, that fundamental change does not mean the same as do things better.
     
  18. Cybred

    Cybred Well-Known Member

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    Totally wrong.
     
  19. ECA

    ECA Well-Known Member

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    What did Obama ACTUALLY do to fundamentally change the US?
     
  20. Lesh

    Lesh Banned

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    Here is what he said

    "Now, Mizzou, I just have two words for you tonight: five days. Five days. After decades of broken politics in Washington, and eight years of failed policies from George W. Bush, and 21 months of a campaign that's taken us from the rocky coast of Maine to the sunshine of California, we are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America.

    "In five days, you can turn the page on policies that put greed and irresponsibility on Wall Street before the hard work and sacrifice of folks on Main Street. In five days, you can choose policies that invest in our middle class, and create new jobs, and grow this economy, so that everyone has a chance to succeed, not just the CEO, but the secretary and janitor, not just the factory owner, but the men and women on the factory floor."

    And you take issue with that??

    Any other claims are bullshit
     
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  21. AmericaFirst

    AmericaFirst Banned

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    America has a lot of problems. And they're getting worse everyday as we simultaneously become more diverse.
     
  22. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In exactly the way he acknowledged in rely to me. His initial statement created the impression that the USA was some magical bastion of perfection when in truth it is, as I said, far from perfect or without flaws and failings. Ironically, a tendency towards nationalist exceptionalism is one of those flaws.

    The rest of you post is just the usual partisan political hate (another American flaw, in all directions) and I'm not interested in playing that game. I've already showered once today.
     
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  23. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    Any organism that doesn’t evolve stagnates and dies off.

    Any country that doesn’t evolve goes the same way.

    Our lives are going to change during this technological revolution. Fewer people will be needed for menial jobs and we’re going to have to make decisions about how we take care of a working class that will not really be needed. Just the way it is.
     
  24. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    I agree that things could be better. No system is perfect and never will be. But what he said isn't wrong either. More things have been invented and society has advanced far more since the US was founded than in the 3000 years preceding it combined.

    1: "Income inequality"... What do you mean by this?
    2: "Lack of affordable healthcare"... I can agree with this.
    3: There is no indisputable evidence that police treat people of color any different than they do white people and I would challenge you to prove your statement.
     
  25. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    Well for once you say something that I can agree with.
     

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