How Mail-in Voting Works

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Sleep Monster, Sep 24, 2020.

  1. Sleep Monster

    Sleep Monster Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    For months now we've listened to Trump and his supporters claim that mail-in ballots are subject to widespread fraud. We on this forum have had many spirited debates on the issue.

    It is obvious to me that most of the Trump supporters here who get their information primarily through right wing sources that are Trump-friendly are in the dark about how mail-in voting works, and why it is nearly impossible to cheat the process.

    With no agenda other than to illuminate and educate, I'm starting this thread to show everyone here who is interested exactly how mail-in votes are processed. Let's start with this:

    https://www.brookings.edu/policy202...ail-work-and-does-it-increase-election-fraud/

    "... there is no evidence that mail balloting increases electoral fraud as there are several anti-fraud protections built into the process designed to make it difficult to impersonate voters or steal ballots."

    I live in Colorado, one of the states that went to mail-in voting only several years ago. Here is how it works:

    1. You register to vote via one of the following methods:
    - Online
    - Submit a registration form available at post offices, county clerks offices, libraries,
    or any facility that provides public services, like senior assisted living facilities.
    - In person at the DMV or any of several government offices.

    2. When an election date nears, ballots are mailed out to registered voters only.
    They are not ... repeat, NOT ... mailed out in bulk to every street address in the
    state. That's a ridiculous notion that Trump keeps mistakenly mentioning.
    Each ballot comes in an envelope that includes a unique bar code and a
    place for your signature, the same one you provide when you register.

    3. You mark your ballot, put it into the bar coded envelope, seal it, then sign the
    outside of the envelope.

    4. You can either mail the ballot via USPS or drop it into one of the convenient drop
    boxes located all over the state. These are the boxes Trump keeps trying to have
    outlawed/removed. In Colorado, drop boxes are checked daily by bi-partisan
    teams.

    5. Once received by the county clerk/recorder, your ballot is certified by checking
    your name, address, and signature against voter registration rolls.

    6. Ballots are scanned, and beginning at 7 p.m. on election day, votes are counted.
    The unique bar code allows you to track your ballot all the way through the
    process.

    In order to cheat this system even by a single fraudulent ballot, you would need to obtain someone else's ballot, and you would need to forge their signature. You cannot even get blank or unsolicited ballots unless you have a way to forge them ... good luck with that, they wouldn't survive scrutiny by the county clerk's office. Unique bar codes, remember?

    Mail-in voting is as secure, if not more secure, than in-person votes. You can't hack paper, nor can you hack into the systems at county clerks offices, since they are closed systems, inaccessible through any online means. Fraud via mail-in ballots has never been a big problem because it is so difficult to cheat this system. The following is from a very conservative think tank:

    https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud

    Look at the totals ... very low. Choose a state to see a list of all instances of mail in ballot fraud and what happened to the perpetrators.

    Trump keeps whining about "millions of unsolicited ballots" being picked up and fraudulently used. THAT ISN'T HOW IT WORKS.

    Please stop listening to Trump and his pet, William Barr about mail-in ballots. They are lying to you. They don't want everyone to be able to vote, it isn't in Trump's best interest.
     
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  2. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    False. In North Carolina the election supervisor removed the requirement for verification of signatures. That means hundreds of thousands of votes will come in and their signatures do not have to be validated.
     
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  3. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    Also, as I pointed out in another thread, my grandmother died three months ago in NC and never requested a ballot. But one showed up to my house three days ago.

    Given that the dems refused to purge voter rolls of deceased people in NC and then removed the requirement for signature verification, what stops me from sending in her ballot?
     
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  4. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    That's exactly how it works in Florida. I should add that there are also many many voluntary groups who scan each and every vote looking for discrepancies. For example (just one example), a vote cast by somebody who is dead. Or if Mickey Mouse turns up voting (believe it or not, somebody tried that here in Florida once)... it's appealed and if the vote is considered fraudulent, it's removed from the count, and authorities are notified. If I remember correctly, there have been less than ten cases of this in Florida since mail-in voting was implemented for all citizens. Which I think was in 2004.
     
  5. ChiCowboy

    ChiCowboy Well-Known Member

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    You got a link for that? Tried, but I couldn't find one.
     
  6. ChiCowboy

    ChiCowboy Well-Known Member

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    Five years in the pen?
     
  7. ChiCowboy

    ChiCowboy Well-Known Member

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  8. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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  9. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    And how do they find out? Voter rolls says she’s okay to vote. And they’re not going to check “her” signature.
     
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  10. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    You have YET to explain how they’re going to catch me with her on the voter rolls and them not verifying her signature. And you can’t because without verification there’s no way to catch the cheaters.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2020
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  11. Sleep Monster

    Sleep Monster Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Got a link?
     
  12. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    And please spare me your ironic comments on “scruples” and ESPECIALLY “love for the country” when you’re talking about democrats.
     
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  13. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Already told you: the fact that she's dead. Easy for any citizen to compare death records with voter poll data. And they will!

    Heck... I estimate that, if I had a database with those records, it would probably take me less than an hour for me to do the whole state of NC using my home computer.

    That doesn't say not to check the signature. It says exactly the contrary!
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2020
  14. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    Just provided one up above.
     
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  15. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    Show me ANYWHERE that says NC will be cross referencing with death certificates lols
     
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  16. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    And yes it does. Quote:

    No Signature Verification

    County boards shall accept the voter’s signature on the container-return envelope if it appears to be made by the voter, meaning the signature on the envelope appears to be the name of the voter and not some other person. Absent clear evidence to the contrary, the county board shall presume that the voter’s signature is that of the voter, even if the signature is illegible. A voter may sign their signature or make their mark.

    The law does not require that the voter’s signature on the envelope be compared with the voter’s signature in their registration record. Verification of the voter’s identity is completed through the witness requirement. See also Numbered Memo 2020-15, which explains that signature comparison is not permissible for absentee request forms.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2020
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  17. Sleep Monster

    Sleep Monster Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This does not count as "massive voter fraud" of the type that Trump keeps harping on about. I never claimed that there was ZERO fraud via mail-in ballots.

    How well can you forge her signature? Also, there's a good chance that the county clerk's office where ballots are processed has information on death certificates filed since the last election. Three months is a short amount of time for that ingormation to be orocessed against current registration rolls.

    Even if you could forge her signature, would you attempt it? The penalty if you get caught is severe, and it's only one vote.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2020
  18. Sleep Monster

    Sleep Monster Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Florida is the one state that Trump claims is safe and secure for mail-in ballots, in spite of the fact that the other states who allow mail-in ballots use much the same processes to prevent fraud.
     
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  19. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    I don’t have to forge anything. They’re not verifying signatures. That’s the ENTIRE point

    There are 700,000+ mail in ballots in NC (Nearly 20x what was requested in 2016) and NONE of their signatures need to be verified. You don’t think that’s a problem?
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2020
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  20. Sleep Monster

    Sleep Monster Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    From you link:

    "Verification of the voter’s identity is completed through the witness requirement."

    Do you know how the witness verification works in your state?

    https://www.ncsbe.gov/voting/vote-m...d-to-serve-as-a-witness-to-an-absentee-ballot

    Again, no voting system is completely secure, but we're talking about Trump's endless claims of "widespread" voter fraud with mail-in ballots, and that is a myth.
     
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  21. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Problem. Unless you purge the rolls minutes before the ballots are sent out, there will be people who move and die.

    The other problem is that no matter how safeguards are built in, there will be people who figure out how to get around them. The sheer number people who are required to handle the ballot provides multiple opportunity for mistakes and fraud. There are at least seven different people who will handle that ballot between the time it is mailed out and when it is put in the ballot box to be counted. Probably more.
     
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  22. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    Witness verification means someone else has to sign saying they witnessed the signature. Which would be me lol
     
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  23. Sleep Monster

    Sleep Monster Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And you have yet to explain how your grandmother's one ballot constitutes massive voter fraipud, which is what this thread is trying to address. Please stop the petty nonsense about one ballot.
     
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  24. Sleep Monster

    Sleep Monster Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Show me anywhere that says they won't.
     
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  25. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Most people (Including Trump) approve of mail ballots- for absentee voters, where the person could not vote otherwise. However, there has been quite a bit of documentation on mail ballot fraud, including an interview with a person who has made his living doing it, and he explained the techniques used. He often worked for candidates or parties... and they were not republicans.

    One method was called harvesting. The process was to go door to door in areas where ballots were delivered (with some phony ID tags) and be "official ballot collectors" insuring the safety of the ballots. Some people refused, but a lot complied. Another was to bribe postal carriers in areas where the opposition vote would be strong to simply dump the ballots collected. There was a news story this morning on dumped mail, including dumped ballots, and it's not the only such report. The person in this interview (who demanded to remain anonymous) claimed that they shifted the balance of many elections in this way- mostly more local ones.

    Another consideration is privacy as well as protection. If you present evidence in court, the rules of evidence require an unbroken chain of custody. If you lose that, your evidence is unacceptable. Mail ballots fail to provide that- meaning they ARE vulnerable. Big question is how strong the motivation to manipulate results is, and without question, it's never been higher, nor the morals of the politicians lower, which means such efforts are more than likely. Not everywhere; they don't need to manipulate votes is a location they are sure to win- you do it in the swing states, and focus on the cities and areas where the opposition is strongest. Remember many of these places pivot on a 1% margin, thus a very small degree of manipulation can shift results in a big way. Mail ballots also means that the vote itself is no longer secret. When you vote in person- you are qualified, then enter any open booth without identifying yourself to the machine. With a mail ballot, those who open the ballots know who voted and how they voted.

    Just as the attempts to infiltrate and corrupt your computer are endless and extremely creative- the people who would manipulate votes are not going to be stupid people; they are going to know the rules and figure out how to bypass them. Just as the very best computer invasions steal data without your knowledge- the best vote manipulations will not leave a trace or smoking gun..... and thus, not be questioned. How much it happens- we won't know. Does it happen? We absolutely know that is has and does. How much has it happened.... we don't know that either, but we do know it's a vulnerability of the system that would be the easiest to exploit. Thus, the vote in person basis is still the hardest to manipulate, and the most trustworthy.

    I think we should be using mail ballots where necessary, but are foolish to use otherwise.
     
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