"A good God wouldn't have a Hell"

I'm not arguing that there is a God and a Hell in this thread, I am just philosophically arguing that it would be possible for both a good God and Hell to exist, and the one does not preclude the other.

 

Well there are a bunch of verses that describe hell. Its pretty clear to me when so many different sources agree on what hell is.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_166.cfm

 

We can quibble about specific types of torture is involved in hell I guess. But what matter is that some type of torture is involved, its excruciating, and its eternal.

 

Nowhere in the bible does it say that people must suffer for us to forgive. In fact everyone who accepts Jesus and becomes born again will be forgiven for everything they do. That means that everyone who did you wrong who later accepts Christ will not be punished for what they did to you. You will have to find a way to forgive them without them suffering. Christ commands it.

 

I don't want to get into an argument that is really based on semantics with you.

I don't think people will suffer physical punishments of the extreme type you seem to be envisioning unless they deserve those punishments, and they will not deserve those punishments unless they had caused them to other people.

However, it's also possible there may be some equivalence principle at work, where their other types of sins can be converted into the equivalent of physical torment, in a just and fair sort of way.

 

If we agree that hell involves some type of torture, it is excruciating, and eternal, then that enough agreement that we are basically talking about the same thing.

 

Tell me, would you find it easier to forgive someone if you knew they had at least suffered some punishment for it?

 

There are different types of torture. People who spend life in prison are suffering a type of torture. People in concentration camps were suffering a type of torture, even if they were not explicitly subject to torture. Those who are suffering in poverty and homelessness and going hungry are, in some sense, suffering a form of torture.
That is kind of what I mean.

I'm just not sure we are talking about anywhere near the same type of "torture".

 

I would find it easier. But the reality is that many of the people who did you wrong will change and be saved. They won't suffer a thing, That is because Jesus values forgiveness and mercy. If Jesus had his way everyone would accept him and nobody would suffer for their sins and mercy would be for all. Jesus is very clear that you must forgive and not just forgive but to also love them and to do good to them.

 

So you concede that there is a possibility someone may not be able to enter into heaven unless someone else is made to suffer?
because there may be a situation where an individual cannot forgive, but can forgive if the offending person suffers some partial punishment

 

I believe that the torture in hell is excruciating from the verses I read. Even if the references to fire in hell are metaphorical, they certainly communicate an important point about hell's intensity. It is certainly more intense than laying around in prison.

 

I would consider life in prison with bad conditions, years being in a concentration camp, or homelessness and constant hunger to be "excruciating" also.

Could that fall within the same thing you are referring to?

Another possibility is it might be "intense" at times, but not constantly and perpetually.

Imagine laying around in prison but then getting severely beat up, getting stabbed and having several of your bones broken, from time to time.

 

I agree it would be easier. But that doesn't mean we should do it because it would make it easier. I'd find it a lot easier to forgive someone if I killed his whole family. But that doesn't make it right.

Also, its very clear that many people who do you wrong will be forgiven. Therefore the bible obviously requires that you learn to forgive without viewing their torture with joy. Those people who cannot forgive without punishment will not be forgiven by Christ.

 

I think hell is excruciating on the level of being in the metaphorical level of being in a furnace, a lake of fire, or in the last days of Soddom and Gamorrah. Its worse than just living in prison. People can adjust to being in prison and basically figure out how to cope. Some people even start preferring prison to the outside.

 

I would quote Saint Thomas Aquinas who wrote that one of the joys of the righteous in heaven will be seeing the just punishment of the wicked.

(considered one of the doctors of the Catholic Church)

 

Aquinas didn't write the bible and what he said is wrong. If you are enjoying the punishment of the wicked, you haven't forgiven them, and that means you aren't being forgiven, and that means you aren't going to heaven.

 

Another possibility is that, in the absence of God, ordinary people might devolve, and commit greater and greater sins while in Hell, to the point that they actually deserve that punishment. It would be a snowballing effect.

Sometimes when people are suffering terrible things themselves, it is much easier for them to want to cause unbelievable suffering on others.

 

If God is a just God, and Hell exists because of God's just nature, then wouldn't it make sense for those righteous to take joy in God's divine justice?

This is not taking joy in someone else's torment, but taking joy in justice being carried out that someone is getting the torment they deserve which they had previously inflicted on someone else.

 

That is an interesting hypothetical. But that doesn't have any biblical basis that people would turn into monsters without God and that hell is really mostly punishment for sins in hell, not on earth. The bible is very clear that hell is punishment for sins committed on earth. It also makes no sense to punish people with hell for sins they commited in hell that could have simply been avoided by not putting them in hell. Also, many people live without God just fine here without God. I'm an example of that. If you and I would turn into monsters the minute God turned his back, I could argue that nobody should go to heaven at all and shouldn't be in his presense.

 

Experiencing joy at someone else's suffering is evil and is the antitesis of what the bible taught. The bible taught that we love and forgive those who hurt us, not take joy in their suffering. For example as a parent, you don't take joy in punishing your child, even if its for something your child did to you. You do it because it needs to be done, not because its fun. When you love someone you don't enjoy their pain.

 

I would disagree with your interpretation.

I think you might need to quote a specific verse or two so we can discuss them.

 

Then how would you explain the existence of Hell?
Are you saying it is good for God to take joy in his justice, but not good for everyone else to take joy in his justice?

And if God doesn't take joy in his justice, why does his justice exist?

 

Then you disagree with virtually the entire Christian world and every single major Christian religion. They all say that hell is punishment for our sins in this life. That is the whole point of judgement day. You will be judged for everything you did in this life and then you will either go to heaven or hell because of those things. I thought every single Christian believed this. It simply makes no sense to send people to hell for future sins in hell that only happened because they went to hell.

 

Not necessarily.

You haven't quoted a single verse for us to discuss.

 

And there is the problem. Hell doesn't make sense. I don't know if there are any verses that claim God takes joy in torturing people, but if they do, God is clearly evil.