Should Trump Be Prosecuted?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Patricio Da Silva, Nov 24, 2020.

  1. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    This article, authored by one of the lead investigators of the Special Counsel which produced the Mueller report, puts forth the argument that, despite the fact that we don't do as authoritarian countries do, i.e., jail political opponents, this case is has a special circumstance that warrants an investigation into Trump's criminal exposure, which is the fact that Trump's crimes are so blatant and in our face, the precedent that would be set if we ignore it is far worse than the notion of violating a tradition.

    The whole point of not jailing political opponents is only justified in cases where the political opponent is innocent, not just of petty crimes, but of major ones, and it goes to the idea that in banana republics and authoritarian countries ( Russia, etc) they jail political opponents, and we do not do that here. Jailing an opponent who is clearly criminal exempts this notion, and does not violate it. The point is, no man ( or woman ) is above the law, and if we let this one slide, that would mean Trump IS above the law, and that idea clearly cannot stand, if there is even a remote chance we are to heal as a nation.

    In other words, my sentiment, exactly. But, I invite counter arguments.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/24/opinion/trump-prosecution.html

    Being president should mean you are more accountable, not less, to the rule of law.
    I do not come to this position lightly. Indeed, we have witnessed two U.S. presidential elections in which large crowds have found it acceptable to chant with fervent zeal that the nominee of the opposing party should be jailed. We do not want to turn into an autocratic state, where law enforcement authorities are political weapons of the reigning party.

    But that is not sufficient reason to let Mr. Trump off the hook.

    Mr. Trump’s criminal exposure is clear.We amassed ample evidence to support a charge that Mr. Trump obstructed justice. That view is widely shared. Shortly after our report was issued, hundreds of former prosecutors concluded that the evidence supported such a charge.

    His potential criminal liability goes further...
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
  2. Pred

    Pred Well-Known Member

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    The Mueller report??? Hahahahahahahahhaha!!
     
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  3. Darthcervantes

    Darthcervantes Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "Hi guys, winning wasn't good enough for me, i'm gonna bring up the Mueller report AGAIN, because, why not?"
     
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  4. Bob0627

    Bob0627 Well-Known Member

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    Unlike a banana republic this isn't a political system where the President of the US can order the prosecution and/or jailing of anyone. If that were true, Clinton, Obama and Biden and who knows who else (probably every journalist who is not favorable to Trump) would be in jail on Trump's orders. No President should have the authority to block any prosecution either (see Obama's "we should look forward and not back"). IMO no one should have qualified or absolute immunity, not even a President. A President can cause enormous damage and should always be accountable for crimes committed while in office.

    Donald Trump has committed multiple crimes, especially crimes against humanity. He should be prosecuted for all his crimes, including but not limited to his most recent attempt to sabotage a national election.
     
  5. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Regarding: "No President should have the authority to block any prosecution either" Of course, and they don't have that authority, but in the case of Trump, he most certainly has tried to block, via lawsuits, investigations into him.

    Nor did I, anywhere in my post, suggest that the president will or should do it.

    What Biden will do is NOT interfere in any investigation, should the DOJ pursue it.

    And, that is precisely what Biden has stated, and he is correct in making that statement. I.e., if it happens, it will happen independently of the president, and my OP merely gives support, the premise of which you are agreeing with.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
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  6. Bob0627

    Bob0627 Well-Known Member

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    That was poorly worded. Of course no President can do that. What I should have said is exert influence, which is really obstruction since a President's public statements carry a lot of weight.
     
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  7. 61falcon

    61falcon Well-Known Member

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    If he has committed any crimes he should be punished for them just like any other common criminal. If it can be proven he deliberately evaded or cheated on his taxes they should nail him to the cross.
     
  8. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    So we are prosecuting political opponents now? Wow, welcome to the banana republic.
     
  9. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Remember that they went after Palin also after the election was over. Once you are their enemy they will never stop hunting you.
     
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  10. AmericanNationalist

    AmericanNationalist Well-Known Member

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    They can feel free to pursue Obstruction of Justice if they want to, but they have a weak case in my view. Obstruction, by definition is when a person either impedes or directly interferes with the investigation. Tweets, no matter how defaming, no matter how you might have disliked them, did not obstruct your work.

    That was testified by Special Counsel Mueller himself. There was no impediment in your investigation. You had access to all of the documents, you had access to all of the witnesses. If you thought there were things lacking, you could have subpoenaed him, but you chose not to.

    And since the tweets make up more than half of your "obstruction" cases, that immediately waters down the case.

    But it's not only Special Counsel Mueller who testified to the contrary, but it was also FMR. FBI Deputy McCabe who said "you simply can't stop the good people in the FBI from doing the right thing.". Both McCabe and Mueller gave these testimonies under oath. So either they were lying, or they're correct.

    Also, this Counsel lied in its documents about contacts between Dowd and Flynn's then counsel at Covington. Dowd explicitly made clear not to give any information that would violate confidentiality obligations, yet this Counsel falsely lied in its report saying that Dowd sought exactly that. Why should His Honor take you at your word now, when you could slander a defense attorney without recourse?

    Simply put, the Counsel's argument(were I a defense attorney), I could poke quite a few holes and probably get them to the negotiating table at the least for a plea deal.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
  11. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Just hope that you don't become politically inconvenient to those is power. Obstruction and lying to a federal agent are examples of how investigations create crimes. The average American commits 3 felonies a day. This is not justice.
     
  12. Capt Nice

    Capt Nice Well-Known Member

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    Long after all statute of limitations have passed and trump has died from natural causes there will be happenings discovered that trump had a hand in. There was nothing the guy did that was not intended to put money in his pockets.
     
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  13. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Each prosecutorial agency federal, state or county will have to make its own decision, based on its view of these cases, its resources, its priorities etc. We hire prosecutors for their judgement on when to file and when not to. Let them decide this and stay out of it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
  14. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Thank you, and one should not draw inference to the contrary from my OP.
     
  15. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Nobody talks about tax evasion or breaches in campaign finance laws enough anymore. There are federal and state law enforcement and tax agencies as well in more than one jurisdiction. so there could be as many 9 different prosecutors making very different decisions on whether to indict.
     
  16. Bisquit

    Bisquit Well-Known Member

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    How did they go after Palin? I remember them laughing at her a lot, but that's about it.
     
  17. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Filed bogus lawsuits to force her out of office.
     
  18. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is an excellent article in the NYT Magazine from Sunday on this topic, authored by Jonathan Mahler. Read it if you can.

    The question you pose is an epic dilemma. Allow a criminal to go free for the sake of "healing" the nation, or follow the principle that no man is above the law. Lot's of gray area. Perhaps Biden should just let NY pursue the civil cased and leave the fed's out of it.
     
  19. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    What you are implying has one humungus check on such a prospect:

    1. A grand jury
    2. A court of law.

    And, in reference to your 'average American commits three felonies per day', this trope is tossed around in right wing circles to argue that the gov is going to get you if you are of the opposite party for any reason they feel like, OR they just don't like you, because there are so many laws on the damn books, that the implication is that the average citizen is bound to commit a few of one or more of them each and every day so using the 'law' as a tool of fascism is the norm.

    Well, I'm not convinced.

    Well, the trope comes from author Harvey Silverglate's book, entitled "Three Felonies Per Day".

    But, here's a quote from him:

    "The 'three felonies a day' is really a figure of speech..." ---Harvey Silverglate, answering an email questioning him about the substance of his book.

    The premise of his book is derived from his experiences defending clients whom he wondered why they were being prosecuted, as the charges seemed unreasonable, as if his defendants were being charged, i.e., singled out just because the prosecutor didn't like the defendant, and thus scoured the criminal codes for any violation they could pin on his client.

    And, so, the premise, ie., the title of that book, has evolved to mean precisely what you are implying it means, and I beg to differ, noting that the 'figure of speech' has evolved to an article of fact by the right. Excuse me, but I think we are in alternative facts territory here.

    I should think it natural that a criminal lawyer would feel that way, and use that, even, as a defense, in his deliberations.

    Is it true? well, I'd like to hear the counter arguments from a few prosecutors, and hear both sides of this allegation, before I would make an honest assessment.

    One thing is certain, it doesn't prove your point. It's just one criminal lawyer's opinion.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
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  20. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "Should Trump Be Prosecuted?"

    Trump is not above the law, if he does not resign and have his VP pardon him, then yes, he could be prosecuted
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
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  21. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think that for the sake of the nation, Biden should stay away from it. The nation does desperately need some peace and calm, less polarization, and a bit of healing and reconciliation, if at all possible. Now, if State prosecutors in New York want to go after Mr. Trump for tax evasion and money laundering, that's a different problem.
     
  22. Bob0627

    Bob0627 Well-Known Member

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    IMO there's no dilemma here. If we are a nation of laws we need to always follow the rule of law and always within the constraints of the Constitution. Biden (and Obama) should have never thrown their opinions into it and just allow the justice system to handle it for both Bush and now Trump. Allowing one President to get away with committing crimes only sets the precedent for future Presidents.
     
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  23. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I realize you are used to arguing against a party, but in this case, both parties are the problem. Republicans push laws that has people who never harmed anyone in prison. Since no human knows all the laws and tax codes, we don't know how many crimes people commit without knowing. We do know that we imprison more of our population than any other country and results show that society is no better off.

    Would the country be better off if Bill Clinton was sent to prison?
     
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  24. Bisquit

    Bisquit Well-Known Member

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    I remember Palin suing others, and I remember her quitting to go on a book selling tour.
     
  25. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    I think the only reason to send a former president to prison if a number of serious crimes were committed.

    I don't think you can compare Clinton to Trump.

    Clinton was disbarred, and for a president, that's pretty humiliating.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
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