Impeachment hearings vs law

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Kokomojojo, Jan 13, 2021.

  1. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Law :

    Rebellion and insurrection refer specifically to acts of violence against the state or its officers. This distinguishes the crime from sedition, which is the organized incitement to rebellion or civil disorder against the authority of the state.

    18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection

    Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
    (June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 808; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(1)(L), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2147.)

    Insurrection Law and Legal Definition

    Insurrection refers to an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government. It is a violent revolt against an oppressive authority. Insurrection is different from riots and offenses connected with mob violence. In insurrection there is an organized and armed uprising against authority or operations of government whereas riots and offenses connected with mob violence are simply unlawful acts in disturbance of the peace which do not threaten the stability of the government or the existence of political society.

    The following is a case law defining Insurrection:

    Insurrection means “a violent uprising by a group or movement acting for the specific purpose of overthrowing the constituted government and seizing its powers. An insurrection occurs where a movement acts to overthrow the constituted government and to take possession of its inherent powers.” [Younis Bros. & Co. v. Cigna Worldwide Ins. Co., 899 F. Supp. 1385, 1392-1393 (E.D. Pa. 1995)]
    https://definitions.uslegal.com/i/insurrection/


    Does the charge match the law, or nothing more than trumped up rhetoric?
     
  2. BasicHumanUnit2

    BasicHumanUnit2 Well-Known Member

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    Insurrection is a Subjective term even though it's Law.

    It is always in the eye of the observer.

    The Constitution SPECIFICALLY grants a remedy for government which no longer represents The People. Does the Constitution advocate "Insurrection" or "Remedy"

    However, those people benefiting from or in agreement with (for whatever personal reason) that over step / tyranny, would consider any attempt
    to stop the perceived tyranny as insurrectionists.

    Germans who fought against the Nazi regime were considered Insurrectionists by the Nazi regime....but were they wrong?
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
  3. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    nearly 50% of the people voted for trump, even if the election was not fair.
    Not too much of a margin.
     
  4. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What does this have to do with impeachment? Or the charges levied against trump and his followers?
     
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  5. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    I thought it was pretty obvious that it had to do with your comments?
     
  6. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    The Democrats could not even quote Trump directing the crowd to violence or insurrection in the Articles of Impeachment. In fact he said quite the opposite. They even had to amend the first draft because they had nothing and inserted the "if you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore". That's the best they got? Are we going to find where Biden called on people to fight like hell and impeach him? It is inciting violence when Democrats tell their constituents to fight for their causes and beliefs?

    They are not allowing for due process or a hearing on the facts and a defense by the President.
     
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  7. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Insofar as the charges leveled against him I at this point in time do not see aside from dramatic rhetoric how the charges are relevant to the law.

    I've seen no comments that can be considered insurrection, I don't think anything was said at least I haven't heard anything said that indicated anyone should break into Congress.

    Did you? If you think something was said please cite it.

    The second issue is the knee jerk reaction of impeaching a sitting president before collecting any real evidence and getting expert testimony prior to charging a president with impeachment.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
  8. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    That's what my ears heard as well
     
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  9. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
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  10. Reasonablerob

    Reasonablerob Well-Known Member

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    The charge is utterly ludicrous and clearly politically motivated. Everyone should listen to Robert Barnes on the issue;

    Ep. 43: Another Impeachment? Capitol Hill Fallout; Tech ANTI-TRUST? Using the Law - Viva & Barnes - YouTube
     
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  11. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It appears to be nothing more than political peacocking.
     
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  12. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    resolution 24 stands adopted.


    Donald John Trump engaged in high Crimes and Misdemeanors by inciting violence against the Government of the United States, in that:


    On January 6, 2021, pursuant to the 12th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, the Vice President of the United States, the House of Representatives, and the Senate met at the United States Capitol for a Joint Session of Congress to count the votes of the Electoral College. In the months preceding the Joint Session, President Trump repeatedly issued false statements asserting that the Presidential election results were the product of widespread fraud and should not be accepted by the American people or certified by State or Federal officials. Shortly before the Joint Session commenced, President Trump, addressed a crowd at the Ellipse in Washington, DC. There, he reiterated false claims that “we won this election, and we won it by a landslide”. He also willfully made statements that, in context, encouraged—and foreseeably resulted in—lawless action at the Capitol, such as: “if you don’t fight like hell you’re not going to have a country anymore”. Thus incited by President Trump, members of the crowd he had addressed, in an attempt to, among other objectives, interfere with the Joint Session’s solemn constitutional duty to certify the results of the 2020 Presidential election, unlawfully breached and vandalized the Capitol, injured and killed law enforcement personnel, menaced Members of Congress, the Vice President, and Congressional personnel, and engaged in other violent, deadly, destructive, and seditious acts.

    President Trump’s conduct on January 6, 2021, followed his prior efforts to subvert and obstruct the certification of the results of the 2020 Presidential election. Those prior efforts included a phone call on January 2, 2021, during which President Trump urged the secretary of state of Georgia, Brad Raffensperger, to “find” enough votes to overturn the Georgia Presidential election results and threatened Secretary Raffensperger if he failed to do so.

    In all this, President Trump gravely endangered the security of the United States and its institutions of Government. He threatened the integrity of the democratic system, interfered with the peaceful transition of power, and imperiled a coequal branch of Government. He thereby betrayed his trust as President, to the manifest injury of the people of the United States.

    Wherefore, Donald John Trump, by such conduct, has demonstrated that he will remain a threat to national security, democracy, and the Constitution if allowed to remain in office, and has acted in a manner grossly incompatible with self-governance and the rule of law. Donald John Trump thus warrants impeachment and trial, removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust, or profit under the United States.


    I dont see anything that conforms to 'insurrection', anyone?

    I do see massive butthurt on the part of dems though lol
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
  13. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Are you under the impression that impeachment in the House and trial in the Senate are a legal procedure, subject to laws? Nope, they are a political procedure, and the Framers left to the House the sole definition of what constitutes "High Crimes and Misdemeanors." This has nothing to do with US law. The law may be invoked in a criminal trial if US attorneys decide to pursue it in the future (I doubt it, and it would be hard to prove), and then yes, the burden of proof is higher (beyond a reasonable doubt).

    But I find it quite incredible that people continue to misunderstand what impeachment is. People scream "due process!!!" which doesn't apply to impeachment (it applies to criminal procedures in criminal courts).

    Like I said before, if the House wanted to vote for a resolution saying that having orange skin and unruly blond hair constitutes high crimes and misdemeanors and therefore impeached the president for having these characteristics, that would be perfectly legal and constitutional and nobody would be able to do anything about it, not even the Supreme Court (except the Senate, which might disagree and refrain from convicting). The House has sole discretion over this and none of the laws you've quoted apply.
     
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  14. The Mello Guy

    The Mello Guy Well-Known Member

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    Yah some people just wanna appear to be against insurrection. Sadly only some.
     
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  15. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Can you quote what you believe to be incitement?
     
  16. The Mello Guy

    The Mello Guy Well-Known Member

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    I can’t quote months of lies about stolen elections. It didn’t all happen in one speech
     
  17. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    This has not been independently investigated and tried in court though the dems state it as fact.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
  18. HurricaneDitka

    HurricaneDitka Well-Known Member

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    Yup. The only relevant portion of the resolution is:
    And that's clearly political speech protected by the First Amendment.
     
  19. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I can:

    "Our election was hijacked. There is no question. Congress has a duty to #ProtectOurDemocracy & #FollowTheFacts." - Pelosi

    "You can run the best campaign, you can even become the nominee, and you can have the election stolen from you," Hillary Clinton

    "Trump is an illegitimate president" HC
     
  20. Surfer Joe

    Surfer Joe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Lol...I see you're going down with the ship, eh?
    Actually, the impeachment process doesn't depend on a specific legal process like a court trial, so your nitpicking distractions are irrelevant.
    It is up to the House to decide who and what to impeach and the impeachment can either pass or fail by majority vote. I'm sure you recall how you people spouted legal sophistry when you impeached Clinton for lying about a blow job. Yet here you are, quibbling nonsense to excuse trump's attempt to subvert an election.
    The trial process happens in the Senate, where the impeached person can be convicted or acquitted.
    It doesn't change the fact that the person has been impeached.
    So far, none of the impeached presidents were convicted in the Senate, but trump has so poisoned his bed that he may earn that distinction as well.
    One can only hope that the repubs will finally find their testicles and do the right thing.
     
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  21. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard.
     
  22. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Whats that? Knee jerk reaction like the dems or do you have something else in mind?
     
  23. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    The election was fair so what's your point?
     
  24. Moolk

    Moolk Banned

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    2 fake Impeachments

    All because Trump outperformed democrats in every positive metric available.

    Not shocking tbh.

    2 badges of honor.
     
  25. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    The impeachment process was done according to the law. So what is your problem?
     

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