Why do Christians and Jews become non-believers in their God?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Cougarbear, Dec 28, 2020.

  1. gabmux

    gabmux Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's exactly what he did....
    when did he say that he did any less than that?
     
  2. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Well, if you've concluded that they are false, then what you're describing isn't really the "start" is it? Given that the people you talk about, atheists, directly reject it altogether, this looks to me like a poor starting point.

    How would you verify that authority? How can you tell it isn't just you who have been duped by that one church, just like billions have been duped by other churches/worships?

    It is a counter example. You made a statement about all beliefs, and the belief I suggested is an instance of a belief (i.e. it is included in "all beliefs"). If what you were saying was true, it should apply to my example as well, but in fact, it does not. Your statement about God's plan is not the fundament for all beliefs, despite what you said.

    For reference, it is also an example of a healthy epistemology.

    What do you think constitutes a proof? What is it about your suggested proof that makes it into a proof, rather than just a claim or something that merely seems consistent/convincing to you? You can write out your supposed proof if you want to, but I have a hunch that my objection will be "what makes you think this gives knowledge of reality, rather than wishful thinking, fallacious arguments from ignorance etc. or outright mistakes and lies?". We might as well skip to the point where you explain how your suggestion becomes a proof.

    It seems to me faith encourages biases rather than truth. Hope and desire encourages wishful thinking above truth. Studying God's word encourages biases (just like studying the Quran encourages Islam or studying communist literature encourages communism). Being without a "double mind" simply makes it harder to catch fallacies and biases as they appear. Why is it that your suggestion takes us away from the established good epistemologies (like the ones in the onion example) and towards the ones that allow one to be scammed?
     
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  3. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We're not all in heaven at the moment are we? The OP suggested that God needs some kind of process to get humans from the state they are in at creation to the state they need to be in to go to heaven. My question is why couldn't God just create humans in the latter state from the outset and cut out the "living on Earth" part of the process entirely?
     
  4. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    That's a very good question. I will tell you right now that as a spiritual free thinker, I will NOT defend what is written in the Bible or the Christian belief of God's nature.

    What I will say is that there is one thing that we have that God lacks: experience. God sets us as far away from him as possible so that through growth and realization aka experience, we will learn the value of love, beauty and any other virtue you can think of. As we grow in experience, we become more like God and eventually merge with God.

    God sets before us physical and mental obstacles so that we overcome them and become more perfected. The choice to be one with the "Universal Will" is entirely ours. I do believe if we strive for that oneness, good things will come our way.

    You of course are welcome to disagree with me and there are no consequences. What I believe, for me anyway, helps me make it through the day.
     
  5. gabmux

    gabmux Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In fact...they have never been apart from what humans refer to as "heaven"....except in their own vivid imagination.
    Humans have simply created their own reality....and their own gods to suit their fancy...
    https://undark.org/2021/01/01/book-...ons-about-the-brain/?utm_source=pocket-newtab
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2021
  6. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That clearly doesn't fit with the idea of the all-knowing and all-powerful god or mainstream Abrahamic faiths which are the basis of the thread and the comment I replied to. That form of god couldn't lack anything by definition. That is the basis of most of the internal inconstancies in these kinds of ideas.

    On your idea specifically, I find it odd that you describe God as lacking experience yet suggest that we become more like God by gaining experience.

    True. What people believe in itself is academic (though interesting from a psychological and sociological point of view). What they do as a consequence can be very significant and makes this kind of discussion more meaningful and important.
     
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  7. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You may be right about the cases where people lose their faith in the face of tragedy and injustice, but in others I find the premise of your question flawed.

    In many cases, I don't think it's a case of people "losing their God" but finding their God, i.e., realizing their God is not other people's God. You can't lose a God that was never yours to begin with.
     
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  8. Pants

    Pants Well-Known Member

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    I think you'll find that most of the previously religious become disillusioned with their religion rather than their God. Many of the 'fall aways' simply stop practicing their faith, but they don't stop having faith.
     
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  9. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    The Shack {movie}
    I highly recommend The Shack as a film that provides
    good answers to the problems connected to God and evil
    in the world.

    The film is good quality and stars Sam Worthington who
    played the role of Jake Sully in Avatar.

    JAG


    ``
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2021
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  10. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    Regarding the movie The Shack:
    My wife and I saw it for the first time a few nights ago.
    I thought about some of the "atheists" on the Internet -- this
    film can reach their minds and hearts.

    Note to the "atheists":
    You're a seeker. Give it a shot. Sam Worthington does
    an excellent job playing the character Mack.

    Mack is a man identical to many of the "atheists" on the
    Internet --he focuses only on the evil and pain in the world
    and Mack blames God for all of it. But Mack learns some
    important truths -- truths that he was never before even willing
    to consider.

    The movie The Shack has good answers for the concerns of
    the "atheists" here inside Thread World on the Internet At Large.

    The Shack is based on the New York Times best seller
    novel The Shack.

    Note to "atheists":
    The shack could be your path to better and happier realities.

    If you desire to stay on the Internet endlessly making the same
    points again and again and again and again blaming God for
    all the pain and evil in the world -- then that's what you will choose
    to do -- but doing that leads to nothing good -- making the same
    points over and over again and again for years and years and
    in some cases for decades --- is a rut -- a destructive rut that leads
    to nothing good. And the clock is ticking.

    Atheists! The Shack can be your path out of the rut that some of you
    have been in for years. Its not going to get any better for you either.
    Age.
    Old Age is coming.
    Followed by the Grim Reaper.

    The Shack is worth your time. What do you have to lose? The Shack
    will present you with answers to your concerns if you go the distance
    with it --- stay to the end.

    I recommend you put the subtitles on so you will not miss a single
    world of the magnificent dialogue. This is a powerful movie. It has
    a message for everybody.

    Again The Shack features Sam Worthington who played Jake Sully
    in Avatar. And it features Tim McGraw as Willie.

    This film is well acted. The script is magnificent. You will be moved.
    Give it a watch.

    My wife and I viewed it for the first time a few nights ago. We viewed it
    again last night. We plan to view it regularly because of its quality.

    Best.

    JAG


    ``
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2021
  11. gabmux

    gabmux Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I read the book....didn't realize there was a movie. Thanks
     
  12. gabmux

    gabmux Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree with you. Perhaps they realize that Religion is yet another distraction from God...
    the religion itself becomes more important than God.
     
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  13. Matt84

    Matt84 Well-Known Member

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    He does? Because I know another Christian that says he doesn't.

    Interesting.
     
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  14. Matt84

    Matt84 Well-Known Member

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    Satan is a figment of your imagination.
     
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  15. Matt84

    Matt84 Well-Known Member

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    He'd also do it himself. He wouldn't rely on his millions of representatives with millions of opinions all pushing their version of the "truth".
     
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  16. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    You're welcome -- my pleasure.

    Best.

    JAG

    ``
     
  17. Cougarbear

    Cougarbear Banned

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    Of course he does. He either answers "yes" or "no." People often don't like to be told "no." They throw temper tantrums, curse God, run away, pout and try to turn others away from God. No wonder he calls us His Children.
     
  18. Cougarbear

    Cougarbear Banned

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    He had a real effect upon you. Must be real. You followed his guidance and threw your temper tantrum and now attack God.
     
  19. Hey Nonny Mouse

    Hey Nonny Mouse Well-Known Member

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    All religious groups tend to become less religious as education levels go up. In the US, the number of Christians and religious Jews is shrinking, but in countries outside the first world, Christianity is doing fine.
     
  20. Hey Nonny Mouse

    Hey Nonny Mouse Well-Known Member

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    Now you are just making stuff up, about Satan's actions and the poster's psychology.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2021
  21. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Does he? In the OT he calls Israel his Child/children. In the NT Christians claim him as their Father through Jesus. Slight difference.

    Incidentally, Jesus was a Jew who worshipped Yahweh. As a Jew he was A son of Jahweh. If Jesus, as Christianity claims, was THE Son of God/Yahweh then he was the descendant of a Ugarit/Canaanite God.
     
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  22. Matt84

    Matt84 Well-Known Member

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    Lol
     
  23. Hawkins

    Hawkins Active Member

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    It is simple. Because "God knows" is not Law. Law can only apply after fact. Earth is the process for this after fact to be well witnessed.

    My question is rather,
    Is human intelligent reliable? Of course not, their low intelligent is well reflected by their incapability of reasoning, that we can't even figure out the answer to a simple question like this.
    If so then, what happens if they insist on choosing to rely on their low intelligence to approach a future occurrence? All I can tell is that they are doomed. The day they use their knowledge/intelligence to approach such a truth, the same day they shall surely die.

    Religion is all about a future humans are completely incapable of reaching (including your science which is futile and incapable of reaching such a future). The only way is through a God who know, there's no other way round.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2021
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  24. gabmux

    gabmux Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Agreed...a lot of that in the news recently
     
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  25. Matt84

    Matt84 Well-Known Member

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    I see what you did there.
     
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