It should be illegal to join or associate with a criminal gang.

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Sackeshi, Mar 25, 2023.

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Should simply being a member of a criminal gang be a crime?

  1. Yes

    6 vote(s)
    40.0%
  2. No

    9 vote(s)
    60.0%
  1. Sackeshi

    Sackeshi Well-Known Member

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    Defining Gang as defined by the federal government: Associations of three or more individuals who adopt a group identity in order to create an atmosphere of fear or intimidation.

    I know the first amendment gives freedom of association, but that doesn't protect criminal activity. If the gang/group commits criminal activity and someone joins it they should be liable.

    It would be really simple to implement just like El Salvador is doing right now.

    1. Joining any gang that partakes in criminal activity is made illegal.
    2. All persons that are part of a gang and know about a criminal act are considered conspirators of said crime.
    3. Any person who is part of a gang and knows about or helps plan or commits a homicide is considered co-conspirators and all shall receive the death penalty.

    Just being a member of a gang is 5 years.

    All members who are privy to a crime before it is committed by their gang is guilty by conspiracy

    All members who are privy to a homicide before it is committed by their gang and fail to report it are guilty of murder in the first degree by conspiracy and face the death penalty.

    Crime would plummet as gangs are taken off the streets and put into maximum security prisons.
     
    Steve N likes this.
  2. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    So if someone is a member of gang, even if there are no evidence he participated in any crime, you want him tossed in jail for 5 years?
     
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  3. popscott

    popscott Well-Known Member Donor

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    Does the Choom gang qualify?
     
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  4. Wild Bill Kelsoe

    Wild Bill Kelsoe Well-Known Member

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    No, because the Deep State will designate political parties as criminal gangs and use that law to arrest people based on their membership of those parties.
     
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  5. Sackeshi

    Sackeshi Well-Known Member

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    Yes because gangs in my state are responsible for almost all crime. So having a law that allows for their arrest without having to prove anything but their affiliation with said gang would be the most successful law in ages.
     
  6. popscott

    popscott Well-Known Member Donor

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    In the US you can be a drunken, coke snorting, pot smoking, drug dealing gang member and be elected ....... twice.
     
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  7. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In my opinion, this should be a resounding 'no'.
    If the individual members of the gang commit a crime, those members can of course be charged for that.

    I think the real question is is there some imperative reason why "being a member" of a criminal gang should be illegal? How important would such a law be to law enforcement, is it really needed, and would it really help prevent other crimes that much?

    I think there are also some ambiguities in defining whether a group is a really a "criminal gang".

    This (in my opinion) is another example of laws that sound good, on the surface, to the simple minded, but are actually unnecessary and could restrict individual freedom.
    Many people may not be familiar with the phenomena of "charge stacking" where a prosecutor will just charge someone with an excessive number of criminal charges, when really only one criminal charge would have been appropriate.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2023
    Lil Mike likes this.
  8. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think your line of reasoning there is kind of a circular argument.
    If it's "criminal activity", it's already illegal, isn't it?
    Unless you're referring to some sort of "criminal activity" that they can't accuse the suspect of, despite can being able to prove the suspect is in a "criminal gang".
    I think you'll need to go into some more detail. Otherwise, the meaning of all those words isn't certain, and I really don't want to see the courts be handed another law that has an uncertain meaning and is open to all sorts of "interpretation".
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2023
  9. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Just to point out, El Salvador is really desperate right now because they have a huge problem.
    Lots of their poor young men illegally migrated to the U.S., joined criminal gangs there, later were deported back to El Salvador during the Trump Administration, and now are wrecking havoc on El Salvador, a small poor country that doesn't have the resources to deal with them all, or deal with all their crime.
    El Salvador has been dealing with the issue in a kind of fascist way, and concerns have been raised by some international human rights groups.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2023
  10. Alwayssa

    Alwayssa Well-Known Member

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    I am assuming one has not been convicted of any gang-related activity in your post.

    For starters, you are using guilty by association. And Second, we are free to associate with whom we should do. Nothing in the US Constitution prevents anyone from joining pretty much any type of association now. It used to be the Communist Party, but we made the law with the indicative of "harming or wanting to overthrow the US government as a pretext, which barely constituted passing on Constitutional grounds. Furthermore, you are making guilty by association a precept with your proposal and thus a person is presumed guilty until proven innocent, another violation of US Constitutional precepts that we have. it is not technically word for word but was written in a Supreme Court decision in Taylor v Kentucky. So, my answer is no based on the Constitution alone.

    Assuming this passes, what type of "gang" are you referring to here? Organized crime? How about biker gangs like the Mongols, Hell's Angels, the Pagans, the Outlaws, the Bandidos, and others (and yes, I know they are technically called clubs, but they are gangs nonetheless), or how about political parties, or antigovernment groups that deal in illegal activity or even cults for that matter. This type of law could be very broad in scope if written a certain way and will affect people in ways that will violate their rights in a lot of ways.
     
  11. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That might be so, but I also see fairness issues and civil rights / civil liberties issues with this.

    There is some trade-off between preventing crime and doing right is ethically right and fair.

    North Korea has been pretty successful at preventing organized crime, but at what cost? Has turned the entire society into almost a totalitarian nightmare.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2023
  12. Alwayssa

    Alwayssa Well-Known Member

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    I seriously doubt the gangs, and I am intentionally using more than one, is responsibilty for all, or most crime in your state. They are just being shown on TV because that is what gets people to watch local news.
     
  13. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, it depends on the area. Years ago I used to live in an area where juvenile gangs were responsible for half the shootings in the city (and probably more like 60%).
    (Most all of their parents were illegal immigrants, gone the entire day working, no time to watch the kids)
    A lot of the old white people who still lived in the city felt uneasy about going outside, especially outside of the nicer neighborhoods.
    By the way, that area is still crime-ridden but not nearly as bad as it was in the late 80s and early 90s. The phenomena of shootings, once almost commonplace in that city, have abated.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2023
  14. Alwayssa

    Alwayssa Well-Known Member

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    I am assuming you were not literally living in the whole state in one place?

    Are there gangs responsible for the crime? Yes, however, the area you are living in is maybe half a square kilometer, maybe, and not the entire state, even a small one like Rhode Island.
     
  15. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No idea what you're talking about. Did I even mention the word "state"?
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2023
  16. Steve N

    Steve N Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I would propose the police and prosecutors put together a group of people who get to hear the proven crimes associated with the alleged gang and then that panel can vote on whether they rise to the level of a criminal gang. Then the police/DA approach the gang members, explain to them they are now in a really bad spot, and if the gang continues to operate then they all go to prison, every one of them.
     
  17. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think there should be some additional level of civil liberties protections.

    For example, maybe those individuals have to have a previous gang conviction crime, for this law to apply to them. And the probationary period would only last 3 years after their conviction.

    From a Libertarian perspective, I find it very unsettling that a government body could decide what organizations are criminal to belong to or associate with. It could easily be abused and become arbitrary or biased.

    Law enforcement already often subject individuals to (non-intrusive) investigation if they belong to certain groups. (Example they might follow a gang member, or send an undercover officer to try to sell or buy drugs from them)
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2023
  18. Alwayssa

    Alwayssa Well-Known Member

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    You didn't but the post I responded to did in which you replied "in some areas....." The poster you and I both responded to thinks the gangs are the sole responsible party for all the cime associated with the state he lives in.
     
  19. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I do notice a trade-off here. I suspect that Sackeshi wants to get "tough" on gangs as an alternative to restrictions on gun rights.
    But then there are still going to be worrying civil liberties issues. You're just kind of shifting who the burden will fall upon, and what types of restrictions are placed on society.

    (And even though making "criminal gangs" illegal sounds like a good and straightforward idea, in reality it's really not. Could be subject to a great degree of interpretation over who and what exactly is a "criminal gang", and preventing the right to freedom of association, freedom of assembly, which happens to be a First Amendment right)

    But I guess in some areas the problems are so bad they are willing to throw civil liberties issues out the window.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2023
  20. 19Crib

    19Crib Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Or the biggest, most powerful gang of them all: The Deep State!
     
  21. Alwayssa

    Alwayssa Well-Known Member

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    Or second biggest group, MAGA supporters.
     
  22. Steve N

    Steve N Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think are are pros and cons to both sides of the coin. Criminal gangs need to be taken down and liberal areas actually make it easier for them to exist. Chicago eliminated their gang databases, and, I think it was Orange County in CA, put injunctions on known gang members prohibiting them from going certain places or hanging out with certain people and the ACLU got it shot down.
     
  23. Sackeshi

    Sackeshi Well-Known Member

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    Yes somewhat, my reason for being against firearms is the same reason I am against gangs, because of the violence caused. Stopping gangs takes care of the Drug problem and violent crime at the same time.

    I understand your worries about such a law being used to target political enemies and if such a law was proposed it would need to be very well written to prevent any such interpretation. The law would need to be iron clad specific to target only what the Federal government gang database considers gangs. The organized criminals using violence and drugs to get money.

    While this is an old article from 2009 https://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/FedCrimes/story?id=6773423&page=1 I suspect that the numbers are simular as far as percentages if its true that 80% of crime then removing gangs from the streets would mean crime in general especally violent crime would drop dramatically and free up police resources at combating the remaining 20%

    Most crimes aren't randomly committed, the lone robber might be randomly targeting people, but the murderer, or the person assaulting an individual is targeting said person for one reason or another, and the ever rising number of drug overdoses is probably linked to the sale of illegal drugs facilitated by gang activity.

    Regardless of Race, Sex, National Origin or Religion, a tough on crime response to removing gangs, would make everyone safer, and affect law abiding citizen less than other measures.
     
  24. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    You know just before I read your OP I was reading how Donald Trump was found to have ties to the Mafia
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...0-years-ago-rejected-due-to-mafia-connections
     
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  25. Steve N

    Steve N Well-Known Member Past Donor

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