Looks like religious fanatics are running out of things to attack Dawkins

We arrested him not long enough and he got the german nationality not from the free state of Bavaria - he got it from Braunschweig. During the Third Empire the german colors black-red-gold and the bavarians colors white-blue (my colors here) were not official colors of Germany and Bavaria any longer (Bavaria was not really a free state during this time). The aryan Swastika tried to replace everything what was German - and maybe in case of the english culture Hitler was more than only successfull. The most people in the english speaking world seem to think the german history was the aryan history between 1933-1945.

And by the way: You are the Nazi with your argument line "All Catholics are Nazis" - we are calling since Hitler such a form of argument "Sippenhaftsargument". You will find in every population someone who is a criminal - and to argue that this is typical for the whole populatoin is nonsense.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnZyvKQgNYI"]Bayernhymne Papst Benedikt in München, Bavarian National Anthem Pope Benedict in Munich - YouTube[/ame]

 

OMG if you really German i hope our neighbors do not start with such revisionist History crap. On the other hand it's not surprising that it comes out of bavaria.
Hitler was Catholic, the catholic Church in Germany supported the Nazi regime, Christianity was allowed and normal in Nazi Germany.
Books like the Origin of Species on the other hand were illegal and got burned.

Religion was not a main driver but to say Nazis were atheist is just stupid.

 

Lots of members of my families died under the Nazis. I hope god will not punish you for this very stupid words.

That's wrong - and everyone [could] knows this. The catholic church was under a very heavy pressure during the times of the Nazis.

no commment

What a nonsense. The Nazis followed a biological ideology they had called Darwinism - if Darwin would had been a German.

The Nazis were without any doubt atheists.

http://youtu.be/LSaCtISvoh0

 

Thank you for the information. I do realise that Germany had a history before 1933. I'm not well educated about it but I've got a bit of an idea.

I don't think I mentioned that "All Catholics are Nazis". That would mean Nazism can be found everywhere there are Catholics. I mentioned Bavaria being Catholic but I certainly didn't infer that because Bavaria was Catholic it meant "Nazi". As far as I know religion wasn't important one way or another to Nazis.

There is though a link between Catholicism and Nazism. I'm thinking of Austria before the Anschluss and the clerical authoritarianism in the Austrian regime.

 

You're thinking of 'Social Darwinism', a pseudoscience, which was started in the 1870's to try and justify all sorts of crazy racist ideas. It had nothing to do with Darwin himself.

 

Hitler himself stated that he did not accept speciation. Hitler was a ROMAN CATHOLIC CREATIONIST.

 

Some years ago it was in this way that a pupil in England learned more about the german history under the Nazis as he learned about the british empire. I thought first this is a joke.

I spoke with someone else - you took the ball. But if you think about that 25% of Americans are Catholics but only one president on the USA was a Catholic until today - and he became even murdered - then no one is able to say Catholics in the USA are respected in the same way as other people there. In England for example it is forbidden that a Catholic becomes king or queen of England. ...

The Nazis founded for example the "Deutsche Christen" (German Christians) where they tried to elmininate all jewish elements out of the christian religion. If a Nazis spoke about "the jewish religion" then it was possible he spoke about the catholic religion - if he spoke about "the blacks" he spoke about conservative Christians and so on and so on. The Nazis sang songs in the streets where they articulated that all "blacks" (= catholic priests in this context) should be killed. They sang about that Cardinal Faulhaber should be hanged and so on and so on ...

Example?

I woud call this a "self-fullfiling-argument-line" (ala 'the evil are always evil and I define who is evil') - but it was not the destruction of Austria-Hungaria what solved problems - it was the destruction of Austria-Hungaria what caused problems. World War 2 was also an effect of World War 1. And the madness of this wars is still active.

http://youtu.be/E_OvT3Qm45E

 

Richard Dawkins can classify himself however he wants, but he has repeatedly and very publicly gone well beyond the personal non-belief of anything one might reasonably call agnostic atheism.

 

My mothers Parents are German and the family lived in Germany during both Wars and lost members.....

So a predominantly Christian Nation, changed to Atheism over night and after the war changed back? Look there was no banning of Christianity, Christians didn't get prosecuted because they were Christian.
I won't deny that the NAZI regime put pressure on the church to spread the propaganda.

Darwin had no part in social Darwinism, which by the way is pure pseudo science as were eugenics which also had an influence on the ideology.

Maybe some of them were which wouldn't surprise me, but Nazi Germany as a country was Christian.

Look I'm not saying that the Nazi were bad because they also were Christians. The religious ideology was not the reason for the Nazis, that doesn't change that Nazi Germany was predominantly christian. This is not an attack on Christianity, there are way easier events to target for that...

 

Nazis?

Roaring 20ies and christian nation - how do you combine this? The Holy roman empire had died in 1806 and not in 1906. What the most people are calling "german empire" is indeed a "prussian empire" - and the anticatholic culture fight of Bismark is still today a very big problem.

The main ideology of the Nazis was biology and not religion. They misused everything in context with religion - but they believed in biology as part of their atheistic ideas.

Tell me something about the christian weddings of the Nazi-leaders and SS-soldiers. I guess you will have difficulties to find someone of them who had married in a christian way.

They were bad because they lived not in respect of human beings and god. They lived only in respect of their own stupid ideas.

Christianity is not an ideology. The criterion for truth is not inside the christian religion - it's outside. We are on the way, we are not the aim.

No idea what you are calling "Christianity" in case of the Nazis except maybe John Rabe - he was a Nazi who saved lots of Chinese because he loved them.

http://youtu.be/cTujbI2BGFQ

 

Hitler was called from a catholic bishop of this time the worst heretics ever had lived and still today no one would be sad if the catholic church had burned him on a stake. But the catholic church had and has not this form of might. Indeed Hitler is a very pitiable human being. He's not only a global tragedy but also a personal tragedy.

http://youtu.be/-xjzEw7mPeo

 

I don't think Dawkins has ever challenged the concept that there could be some form of divine being involved in the creation and/or ongoing management of the universe. What he does challenge is the unshifting beliefs in very specifically defined deities with detailed characteristics, demands and, significantly, consequences. It is basically about understanding the difference between theism and religion.

I don't particularly like Dawkins in the manner he presents many of his arguments (which seem to be more about self-promotion than anything else) but I agree with the fundamental principals they're based upon.

 

Depends if you consider living in Germany and having to do military service then yes, as was the big part of the German population. Was your family in active Resistance of the regime? If yes congratulations if not they were Nazis...
And you know what that part of my family is catholic.

so the 61+ Million Christians (40 protestant / 21 catholic) that lived in Germany around 1925. You wan't to tell me that around 1933 47% of the population were atheists that voted for the atheist Hitler? And just FYI Hitler won in Bavaria.

There Ideology was based on antisemitism and racism and had absolutely nothing to do with real science. Oh yeah they included some Mysticism in it. Try to pander Mysticism to a atheist......

There were christian marriages during the Nazi regime and I'm sorry a totally normal soldier was still a Nazi, everyone that didn't oppose the regime was a Nazi and that's most of the population.

I can understand the wish to distance his own believe system from something. Christianity is pure and good, so it can't possible be part of such terrible events. And then you start to distort the historic facts.

 

Hitler was an insane megalomaniac. I've never been convinced that whatever he may or may not have actually believed has any relevance outside the confines of his own warped mind.

 

One moment please - what do you like to say with this sentence? Your ancestors were indeed Nazis - and that's the reason why you are not shy to call every German a Nazi?

http://youtu.be/30HsgKTkQ68

 

Hitler never in his life was a political representative of Bavaria. What means "FYI"? - got it: "for your information" - It was by the way typical for Prussians and Nazis to use short cuts.

http://youtu.be/65onkJNRqWw

 

That's why the USA was not worried when Heisenberg asked Bohr to go to Einstein and to tell him that he will not produce a nuclear bomb and so Hieroshima and Nagasaki never happened.

http://youtu.be/Ev2d92_W47Y

 

It would be just as credible if Rick Santorum classified himself as a secular Christian.

 

What i said is, that every German citizen that didn't oppose the regime was indeed a Nazi. That is not that hard to understand is it? Look antisemitism ran rampart in pre war Europe (actually was common since the dark ages), Germany was down and out thanks to the WWI contracts, so the rhetoric of Hitler was accepted on a broad basis. Sorry a Fringe Party does not get 47% of the votes when 4 other parties were taking part in the election.
Most physical able men had to do military service so if you're a soldier in the Wehrmacht.
That makes most of the population Nazis.

This however doesn't mean that I that condemn those people, the options were, oppose the regime and risk detention and death or go with it and at least don't get prosecuted.

 

Heinrich Himmler tried to create a new mystic religion for example - but this doesn't mean he believed in his own religion. He used it perhaps only as a motivator. He also told others that he is the reborn german emperor "Heinrich" for example so his own atheistic SS-soldiers started to callhim "Reichsheini" - what means something like "fool of the empire" or "clown of the empire".

Mysticisms and atheism are perhaps only the same side of a human spirit without anchor in god.

http://youtu.be/55yCQOioTyY

 

EOC,N = end of communication, Nazi. How many people murdered the people of your family with bombs or other methods?

http://youtu.be/5DE2M-rI4Aw

 

You should be aware that Hitler was never excommunicated by the Catholic Church, even though he was a Catholic. And there are several speeches in which he praised Jesus and the Christian faith.

It should also be transparently clear that even the distinction between "Jew" and "Christian" is a purely religious distinction. Jews, orthodox christians and other religious "outsiders" were placed in the camps of the holocaust.

These purely religious distinctions have no meaning, really, outside of the faith of Christianity, or, more specifically, of the faith of Roman Catholicism. The holocaust has often been framed in terms of race, but clearly religion and religious prejudice had far more to do with it. Even the war against Russia and England could be seen in somewhat religious terms... the orthodox christian Russians and the heretical English Anglicans, etc.

 

You'll also find that Christians, like Ano here, like to play logical fallacies, a favourite being the No True Scotsman fallacy, as if they get to decide who belongs to their religion and who doesn't, solely based on how they feel about the person.



Also..........


There was surprise when Prof Dawkins acknowledged that he was less than 100 per cent certain of his conviction that there is no creator.

The philosopher Sir Anthony Kenny, who chaired the discussion, interjected: “Why don’t you call yourself an agnostic?” Prof Dawkins answered that he did.

An incredulous Sir Anthony replied: “You are described as the world’s most famous atheist.”

Prof Dawkins said that he was “6.9 out of seven” sure of his beliefs.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/rel...ut-of-seven-sure-that-God-does-not-exist.html

 

You'll find that the inability to engage in logical and coherent reasoning is not reserved to Christians alone, not even in this forum.

Oh I'm sure even Rick Santorum is afflicted with the occasional human doubt that would allow him to rate himself as 6.9 out of seven on the Pro-God scale. That does not make him an agnostic.

Dawkins is sure enough of his beliefs to make a living from preaching them - even sure enough to spend money on bus campaigns in London to promote them. If you behave like a zealous fanatic missionary you probably are one.

I shall of course account for the possibility that Dawkins is more motivated by the money and publicity than by his beliefs or lack thereof. (A suspicion I have regarding most televangelists as well, by the way)

Your very link also shows again that Dawkins has very little actual knowledge on the subject he criticizes. Otherwise he'd know that the Pope does not take biblical creation stories literally either : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution
But of course criticizing weird evangelical fundamentalist beliefs based on biblical literacy (while misrepresenting them as the only 'true' Christian ones) makes for easier to write and read bestsellers than seriously occupying yourself with bone-dry academic theology and metaphysics. And if word got out that not even the Pope has a problem with evolution these days that would be very bad for Dawkin's favourite punchlines.

 

By the sounds of it you haven't actually bothered listening/reading Dawkins and instead have taken everything you know of him from right wing Christian blogs.

He talks, for example, about moderate religious figures, such as the Pope, or at least the previous Pope.