would like to discuss the idea of a creator with an atheist

I have pretty much stated my case exhaustively in prior threads replies and comment. I will briefly restate them here for benefit of new members and guests etc; 'I believe the universe was created by God. It is also my belief that the Hebrew religion is the most accurate, better supported so I accept it. I came to believe in 'modified progressive creation' vs any of the competing ideas theories etc. such a s atheism or secular science. It's more logical to believe the universe was created than to believe it emerged from 'nothing'. I subscribe to the KCA theory (Google William Craig reasonable faith KCA) for logic and structure. Then after the universe was created it was designed to run on auto pilot, a sort of enhanced deism with tweaks from the creator, most minor tweaks until man with his free will was created. Then the tweaks become more elaborate as mans free will exponentially increased the number if ways the future could manifest. That is a very short proclamation a brief abstract of the history and origin of the universe according to a Zionist open theist christian that loves Jesus Christ and his 'father'.

 

Ha ha, fairy telling eh? You should have a full load of classes majoring in theology going for a masters or a PhD. I struggled to obtain my masters even though I received it quite by accident. (I went to so many night university classes over ten years to kill time while working away from home that I acquired nearly enough accredited semester ours to earn my masters) However I can guarantee you that some philosophy and certain other courses are very difficult. So theology is serious study and a serious subject. Don't feel bad there are many people that think a PhD in say comparative theology/religion is some kind of play degree. For me it was more difficult than engineering which was my first love.

Circumstantial evidence is sufficient to provide proof for existence even in secular science! So you have double standards in the veracity of evidences? There is much evidence to support the existence of God.

So is some science.

The same could be said for some science.

What do you mean logic has no effect? Modal logic has no effect? Deductive logic has no effect? A logical syllogism such as the premises of the KCA is the same thing as a fabricated paragraph ? Ha ha I think you had better go back and brush up of some subjects from theology to modal logic.

You are forgetting that these neat cosmological/ontological arguments are not designed to prove anything. They are to show a logical progression of how God could of created the universe and make an 'argument' for it. Kurt Godel, whom many say was Einsteins intellectual equal was a theist and created his own ontological argument too, although it did not impress me, as I prefer the KCA as interpreted by Dr William Craig or Koon. Something that I will mention is atheism. Or secular science that does not claim atheism but sure tries its (*)(*)(*)(*)edest to eliminate a creator from the universe. I consider ‘doctrine’ of atheism the antithesis of logical thought, especially when it claims the fifth. The Presumption of Atheism is the claim that atheists do not have to prove they are correct in that belief until theists prove their believes are true. So I claim that atheists try to evade their epistemic (and debating) responsibility by redefining atheism (from its turn of the century definition) so that today its not a view but only a psychological condition which as such makes no assertions.(*)In my opinion those guys are not atheists but really agnostics that want to wear the title of atheism but can not defend the belief. Sorry I did drift off topic just a bit but in reality it was a preemptive strike. I have debated these things long enough to know those questions etc would be brought up if anyone responds to my reply.

reva

 

Do you speak with me?

http://youtu.be/RQTR0D6QCSw

 

Well we don't know how the creator came into being but just because you don't know how the creator came to be doesn't mean the creator doest exist. We can't even understand our world completely so how could we even begin to understand anything about our creators world.

 

If time didn't exist before creation then there was nothing at all before creation. If an electron or sub-atomic particle moves at all it creates measureable time. Therefore, if stuff appeared then time started even if the stuff wasn't in its present form.

I like the question: "why should there be anything at all?" better than "where did we come from?"

When we find out what the universe is we may be able to ask the right questions.

 

Bam. Or as Dawkins once put it, science replaces private prejudice with publicly verifiable evidence.

 

So then why does there have to be a creator?

 

Of course it makes sense to ask what happened before. I have an inquiring mind.

Has god always existed? If he did, then time has always existed.

Has god created worlds other than ours? If so, were these worlds created before or after ours?

 

Oh I'm not suggesting theology is easy. About a year ago I had a conversation with a C of E reverend in his church and he told me that his previous profession of university lecturer in mathematics was easy compared to the work he needed to do to master theology. I'm saying that it's largely irrelevant. All that brainwork and nothing to show for it other than some very tidy thinking. Fairytales, complex fairytales for sure, but fairytales nonetheless. It's all hypothesising without any fear of being required to demonstrate anything of a positive nature. Just as long as the arguments are valid in form then no need to pay any attention to any truth value as it applies to reality.

 

No, just throwing out my views to all who may want to take issue.

 

If no time was existing it makes not sense to ask what was "before" time was existing. Sure you can ask - but there's no answer. It's the same to ask "Blubbb?". We have only a feeling that the question "What was before time was existing?" makes sense - because it sounds like billions of other questions where it makes indeed sense to ask for causes. But in this special case it's indeed a completly senseless question. We have only the chance to believe that god created the world - we never will know. Buddha Shakyamuni once said for example something like: "Dont hang the sharpness of your thoughts in depths where you never will be able to find something". To ask what was before the first moment is such a completly frustrating situation. It's like to search for a perpetuum mobile. Some people are wasted their whole life with such a question. Sure everyone can do so - that's not a sin - nevertheless: No one should forget also to do deeds of love - this helps maybe more to be accepted after the own death in heaven and to find an everlasting joyful live there for eternities.

http://youtu.be/NYg9R7TsvDo

 

Good - so there's no need for me to answer. Sometimes I'm forgetting it anyway.

http://youtu.be/WjVZbMDGHKE

 

If god is irrelevant for you then it's irrelevant for you. But why is it irrelevant in general if someone studies theology? How do you know it's better for everyone if no one would study theology? No one is for example able to do physics without studying mathematics - and mathematics is also only a kind of thoughtful metaphysics without any concrete reality. Nevertheless either a circle was existing in the first moment the universe was existing - without any evolution - or we are not able to say anything about the evolution of the universe. But we are able to do so - we are doing physical science. To call everythgin "only" fairytales is a strange argument - specially also because lots of things what were spoken about in fairytales became true in a kind fo self-fullflling prophecy. A good motorbike is for example not a big difference to some seven-mile-boots.

http://youtu.be/yy-gMNT35yM

 

id like to discuss the idea of a creator with a god be it atheist or otherwise

 

In other words, god hasn't existed for eternity.

Where did he come from? When did he arrive on the scene?

 

it's sort of like asking who invented pizza or where pasta came from..china or italy..
who gives a fock..it'a all good..I don't need god to make me happy and if he does exist more power to him but why worship some dude who's going to send me to hell anyway...
cheers..

 

All good! I usually try to quote the poster if I am looking for a response.

 

God came never from nowhere and created everything out of nothing. And now he's in front of your eyes and always here. And if he is dead for you then you should create him in your universe again while you don't should try to crucify him - although it's to late not to do so while it's never to late ...

http://youtu.be/221mohEolWc

 

Same to him ... could be ... Still you are not forgotten ...

http://youtu.be/Orv_F2HV4gk

 

Because of the complexity and intelligent design of the creation (the world and inhabiters)

 

your assuming the intelligent design

hows god avoid being complex?

 

It's a supposition, completely unable to be proven, therefore not science. Theology again.