Would the U.S. have been better off staying out of WW2?

After the whole Norway thing I think it was (was it during the whole Norway thing that the RN sank practically every destroyer Germany had?) the Kriegsmarine was terrified of the RN. They fully expected that Operation Sealion would end the KM.

 

And with no Kriegsmarine, there would be no way to supply the Sealion invasion force.

Sealion was a pipe dream. I've pulled off a successful Sealion in Hearts of Iron, but only by gaming the (*)(*)(*)(*) out of the system.

 

Hearts of Iron.......... great game. The problem with HoI is that it just has transports. Doesn't have different types.

Germany's transports weren't like the ones the Allies used during Operation Neptune. They were well suited for an amphib landing. The German ones were Rhine River barges. It's estimated that up to half would have sunk on their own while crossing the Channel.

 

You can upgrade the transports with several kinds of stuff, you just need the patches.

 

Is that so ? First of all the German navy was no match for the Royal Navy + by 1940 Battle of Britain the RAF have severly crippled the Luffwaffe, in North Africa the Commonwealth army had already kicked the pasta out of the Italians. Rommel was grumbling cos the Royal Navy in the Med - from Gibraltar + Malta , was sinking his supplies .

Whether America would have been financially better off is speculation its another "WHAT IF" . However , you'd be living in a very different america . First, your Labour Unions/Blue collar workers would'nt have had be benefits of higher standard of living as it did during the post war years. By making a deal with Adolf - your financial elite would have screwed the workers as was common in 20th century Fascist states.

Here are a few facts :

In December 1940 President Roosevelt proclaimed the U.S. would be the "Arsenal of Democracy" and proposed selling munitions to Britain and Canada.[7] Isolationists were strongly opposed, warning it would lead to American involvement in what was seen by most Americans as an essentially European conflict. In time, however, opinion shifted as increasing numbers of Americans began to see the advantage of funding the British war against Germany, while staying out of the hostilities themselves.[8]

The American position was to help the British but not enter the war. In early February 1941 a Gallup poll revealed that 54 percent of Americans were unqualifiedly in favor of Lend-Lease. A further 15 percent were in favor with qualifications such as: "If it doesn't get us into war," or "If the British can give us some security for what we give them." Only 22 percent were unqualifiedly against the President's proposal. When poll participants were asked their party affiliation, the poll revealed a sharp political divide: 69 percent of Democrats were unqualifiedly in favor of Lend-Lease, whereas only 38 percent of Republicans favored the bill without qualification. A poll spokesperson also noted that, "approximately twice as many Republicans" gave "qualified answers as...Democrats."[9]

Opposition to the Lend-Lease bill was strongest among isolationist Republicans in Congress, who feared that the measure would be "the longest single step this nation has yet taken toward direct involvement in the war abroad." When the House of Representatives finally took a roll call vote on February 9, 1941, the 260 to 165 vote fell largely along party lines. Democrats voted 238 to 25 in favor and Republicans 24 in favor and 135 against.[10]

The vote in the Senate, which took place a month later, revealed a similar partisan divide. 49 Democrats (79 percent) voted "aye" with only 13 Democrats (21 percent) voting "nay." In contrast, 17 Republicans (63 percent) voted "nay" while 10 Senate Republicans (37 percent) sided with the Democrats to pass the bill.[11]

President Roosevelt signed the Lend-Lease bill into law on 11 March 1941. It permitted him to "sell, transfer title to, exchange, lease, lend, or otherwise dispose of, to any such government [whose defense the President deems vital to the defense of the United States] any defense article." In April, this policy was extended to China,[12] and in October to the Soviet Union. Roosevelt approved US $1 billion in Lend-Lease aid to Britain at the end of October 1941.

This followed the 1940 Destroyers for Bases Agreement, whereby 50 US Navy destroyers were transferred to the Royal Navy and the Royal Canadian Navy in exchange for basing rights in the Caribbean. Churchill also granted the US base rights in Bermuda and Newfoundland gratis, allowing British military assets to be redeployed.
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You have to download the mods. There are several that make the game more realistic.

 

I assume you mean to say we sign neutrality with Japan and there's no Pearl Harbor because that is the #1 reason we got into the war. So okay, Pearl Harbor never happened.

WW II would end with the Russians and Germans signing a peace treaty, the rest of Europe would be Nazi-controlled.

This really sounds like a setup for World War Three because with the nuclear bomb, you can change world events... the Nazis would eventually use them against the USA and Russia and claim the world.

Scary.

 

Neither the Russians nor the Germans are going to sign a peace treaty after what Germany did in the Ukraine and what the Soviets would later do in East Prussia.

 

Your exactly right, before the 2nd world war started we were getting back on our feet thanks to FDR starting the 'Lend Lease Act' and the war helped put the icing on the cake. There is no way we could have stayed out of the war when Hitler declared war against us along with Japan although Japan knowingly could not defeat the U.S. To sum it all up, the 2nd World War got us out of the depression and back on our feet, then comes Osama that is spending Billions of tax payers money on his own personal agenda, we need to start another war with Mexico.
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Enemy of my enemy is my friend. If the Nazies were still around, we'd remain closer to the Soviets just to keep the Nazies in line.

 

Yeah , you got that right . (wink)

 

If it's any consolation, I think we should stop posturing when it comes to the War on Terror and the freedom rhetoric.

Ideally, we'd just beef up domestic security and restrain our interventions to maintaining our various bases in the world. We should stay out of the conflicts and just trade.

 

The war did get us out of the recession, but not because of war spending. Wars are nothing but destruction and the production that goes into war does not benefit the lives of its citizens. WWII was a time of rationing, of forced scarcity. You call that boom times? Unemployment is easy to solve and not the best measure of prosperity. We could end unemployment today by drafting every unemployed american, but how would that funcionally be any different that putting everyone on welfare? And if everyone was drafted in the military, unemployment would be 0 but we'd all starve to death.

The idea that war spending was beneficial is simply the broken window falacy. Our economy boomed AFTER the war ended and spending was cut because most of europes infrastructure was destroyed.

Would we have benefited from staying out of the war? It's hard to say. We exited the war as one of the two world super powers and the ability to print the world's currency. Had we not gotten involved Germany would have controlled europe and Japan would have controlled China and the pacific.

 

What's the point in shame if you know any other country in the same position would do the same?

The only real change needed here is for us to drop the exceptionalism idea. We're not exceptional. We're just as self-serving as everyone else, so ultimately, it's about serving your own needs the most effectively.

 

Pearl Harbor wouldn't have happened if we had made an agreement with the Japanese.

The Nazies probably could have been held to a standstill by the Soviets and British together. It would've sucked for a lot of continental Europe, but that wouldn't have been our problem.

 

What makes you think that ? Considering the large number of Americans of German decent , + the igh unemployed - 1920-30s 0- IMO , its unlikely that Washngton would have been inclined any close relationship with Stalin.

Have you conveniently forgotten this :

[video=youtube;Wt5ADdybTug]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt5ADdybTug[/video]


SIEG HEIL UNCLE SAM.



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Alright, maybe we would've sided with the Nazies instead. Either way, we wouldn't have to get involved in yet another European war.

Truman was once quoted as saying that we should let the Soviets and Nazies fight things out and then deal with whoever the victor is. I can't say he had a bad idea with that one.

 

You think we should have made a truce with the enemy that bombed Pearl Harbor? You can't let people attack us without stern payback. Doing anything else will guarantee more attacks.

Having said that, we should avoid other peoples' wars like the plague.

 

This thread was made under the assumption that the attack didn't happen and that we took the steps necessary to avoid it.

 

Yet you say that we should have kept arming the British and Soviets without getting into the war.

How were we going to avoid getting into the war while Unrestricted Submarine Warfare was going on? Should we have just let our merchantmen die?

 

That would've been most unlikely , as both US + Imperial Japan was competing for dominance of the Pacific region - dating back to late 19th century. Sooner or later the two would have clashed.

 

Serfin , therea one important lesson I think you should bear in mind :

"No matter what political reasons are given for war, the underlying reason is always economic.~A. J. P. Taylor

Life in america was'nt all that good even before 1914-18 WW 1.


American banks - Wall street was in the $hits since the 1920's crash , including its own internal catastrophies - i.e. Dust Bowl - drought and starvation which had NOTHING to do with Wars , however , it'll be stupid not to recognise that WW2 got America out of the DEPRESSION and enabled the average american enjoy the post WW2 boom t.

 

If Ron Paul was in charge we would've concentrated our forces on Japan and ignored Germany.

 

When was the first attack made against our merchantmen?

 

Serfin - can you tell me what was the standard of living like of the AVERAGE american before WW 2 - ?

Are you aware what the impact of america's NATURAL disasters , i.e. earthquake - drought - etc, had on the AVERAGE american , BEFORE your Federal Administration via USA Inc., reaped the profits from being involved in foreign wars ?


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